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Avoiding corporate BS

Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:29 am
by Stahlmann
how much faux pas is below message to LI recruiter?

- *somebody is asking me to provide salary ranges as first person*
-Why is it like that :) ? Why so open and so international company is interested in putting down in lost position his (possible future) coworker? In case I'm blacklisted for future positions in X for "standing out", please let me know. I wish you all best on personal level, but please be a bit more considerate on professional one.

I should have written that I'm aware that I got blacklisted :lol:

Re: Avoiding corporate BS

Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:34 pm
by Frita
Hm, part of blacklisting seems to be secrecy. You may have been told you were on it or just came to the conclusion yourself; however, I doubt that will be confirmed. You sound angry and hurt. Those are valid feelings. You probably dodged a bullet. How does this communication as drafted help/change the situation? What would your ideal outcome be?

Re: Avoiding corporate BS

Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:31 pm
by Stahlmann
There're countries where wages tend to visibile from the outset.
Let's ponder for a second why it's not the standard situation...
I don't like people who have power over me (I'm punk deep inside).
I see the fact that smart people tend to know industry standards/wages.
It was answer for somebody from other "industry" who fished me by knowledge of German.
My idea was to be "Stahlmann The Great Teacher".
I'm deep fan of deconstruction as a tool of analysis of my surrounding reality.
I wanted to show that I see this "dance" (of being worker in worker<->capita.... employer relationship), but I can say no, because... a bit of ERE and being a bit of punk (this why I demanded answer for my question about wages, because I value my time).
Maybe I suffer from too much "sparkling water in my brain" due to solid financial cushion (nevertheless, I'm rather poor by standard of this forum).
Also, everybody has chance to join my global resistance against capitalism :lol:

It's interesting that people from the outside see this as "being hurt" (not as "practical usage of 10yrs experience in system thinking to deconstruct average HR lady"). Being INTP sucks :lol:
daylen pls explain this.
With being angry - I can agree. I also haven't simply haven't found wages to this BPO role in (which will be automated in a short future) in the internet, so I simply asked about it in a very specific way.

Re: Avoiding corporate BS

Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:38 pm
by Frita
Being an ENTP can be a drag too. I wish I was more introverted as I’d rely less on others.

Re: Avoiding corporate BS

Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:59 pm
by daylen
Stahlmann wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:31 pm
It's interesting that people from the outside see this as "being hurt" (not as "practical usage of 10yrs experience in system thinking to deconstruct average HR lady"). Being INTP sucks :lol:
1. People tend to mimic the generalized corporate facade as a survival mechanism to stay in the game.
2. Judgements on the "losers" made by "winners" are selected for in the corporate signaling game.
3. Ti is selected against in middle-corporate positions in favor of Te.
4. Ti tends to notice inconsistencies between behavior and signaling.
5. Middle-corporate environment full of non-thinking zombies + High Ti = Absurdist humor
6. Pushing buttons (AKA trolling) in order to amplify absurdity for personal enjoyment is interpreted as lack of corporate game playing ability.

Re: Avoiding corporate BS

Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:59 pm
by Stahlmann

so which buttons inside should I click inside me to avoid this?
I mean if I get to serious about "winning" I tend to be rated as unbearable and asocial (and also a bit fake by environment, I can't express emotions correctly; I got interested in impro theatre to learn this)

for example recently I'm learning to be more social.
I find this interesting, because I can plot "somebody's life"
but people tend to be a bit afraid of me.

Re: Avoiding corporate BS

Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:14 pm
by daylen
Easiest way to fit in is to talk as little as possible. Prompt others to talk by asking vague questions related to their interest. If someone says "I like to do X.", then say "You like to do X?" (in a way that makes you seem interested).

Transfer that winning attitude to the meta-game. Your objective should be to play any game you want whenever you want as opposed to wining any single game.

Learn how to mimic the generalized corporate facade. After mastering this you can start working on integrating advanced sarcasm to scratch that absurdist itch. It is possible to troll others without them noticing. The best part is that this allows you to plant seeds in their mind that you can water later if desirable. I like to think of trolling as the art of making people think when they most resist it. Mostly this just requires attention and patience on the part of the troll. Presenting all your cards too hastily scares people off.

Re: Avoiding corporate BS

Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:34 pm
by jacob
I think of trolling as generally obnoxious behavior high on the list of reasons for possible blacklisting. It should definitely not be encouraged. While trolling might influence others until the troll is blocked or ghosted, it rarely wins any friends except perhaps other trolls. The good news is that it's relatively easy to fix this, especially in written communication. Delay hitting the send button and if you've having second thoughts about it, don't send it or just delete the "button pushing" sentence.

Also note that blacklists can be shared. Some corporate systems are implicitly designed with this in mind. For example, when HR requires 2-3 recommendations from different previous bosses to get a position. If you're on one of their blacklists, that will screw things up. The higher the position, the more recommendations are required. Basically, because they want to see someone with a lot of demonstrated corporate gamesman conformance.

The way I see trolling is that it falls in the "stupid"-quadrant of Cipolla's description of humanity. Trolls hurt others and they hurt themselves. Blacklisting/ghosting/unfollowing changes the situation to "hurting themselves" which is the "helpless"-quadrant. Smarter trolls stay anonymous and can briefly be transferred to the "bandit"-quadrant until they get ignored and become ineffectual.

"Not trolling" at worst moves one towards the "ineffectual" center---maybe not part of the solution but at least not part of the problem. The way out is of course to think of every interaction in terms of "benefit to self AND benefit to others". People get whitelisted if they have demonstrated being a "benefit to others".

Re: Avoiding corporate BS

Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:03 pm
by daylen
Hmm.. it appears that my definition of trolling is becoming a little too liberal. What is a good word for the activity of expressing thoughts in a way that bypasses the mental barriers of others while also prompting them to think in a way that would have previously been blocked by those barriers?

Teaching I guess but this seems to be associated more with a blank slate. Persuasion fits a little better but implies a more direct approach.

Re: Avoiding corporate BS

Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:28 pm
by jacob
@daylen - I don't know if there's a really great word for it and I agree that persuasion suggests an active approach on part of the listener too. Rhetoric covers the idea and Aristotle's book covers many of the ideas for effectively getting around the barriers. "Selling" and "spin" describes the personal scale. On a large scale, it's propaganda although public relations (as something to be managed) is a better way to think about it.

Re: Avoiding corporate BS

Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:07 pm
by chenda
Enlightener or saviour (with hindsight)

Re: Avoiding corporate BS

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:57 am
by Jean
Maybe hurting the system and one's options within it have long terme benefits, and that's why nature hasn't eradicated this kind of behavior?

Re: Avoiding corporate BS

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:01 pm
by Lemur
Avoiding corporate BS is not really possible....unless you chose to simply not play the game which, in the end, will bite you (something I learned from Gervias Principal). Best to just learn how the game is played and learn leadership skills to influence others...that way you can change the BS.

Re: Avoiding corporate BS

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:40 am
by Stahlmann
I hope to be one day smart enough to post such things on LI:
Polite information for all respected recruiters, brokers and headhunting companies.

Ladies and gentlemen,

Thank you for your offers. However, my experience with recruitment companies is clear. Recruitment consent means consent to the hours of interviews, teleconferences, trips, etc. The same questions will be asked again, to which the CV answers long ago.

In the end, a position will be given to someone with much less experience, for half the rate, or a friend, as long as obedient and controllable, because most of these interviews are not aimed at recruiting but gaining free knowledge and acquiring not a good specialist, but a chain dog to guard [small department] in the corporation.

Time devoted to such a process and talks is the time I waste for myself. I will not earn money, I will not take care of my family, I will not help others (volunteering).

I agree to participate in the processes only on condition that I get paid at least PLN 100 / hour for the indicated charity.

And please forgive me, but I will not prepare any free case-studies or presentations. I will not say exactly how the companies are managed and what they do or did in a given case. Specialist knowledge costs money, please buy it at market rates from appropriate specialists. You can too.

Thank you very much and best regards.