Refusal of Work and Employability

Hacking employment, improving work, professional development
7Wannabe5
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Re: Refusal of Work and Employability

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:44 am

classical_Liberal wrote:"Normal" for a 20-30-something struggling musician in New Orleans is very different than "normal" for a 40's middle class nurse living in a college town in the Midwest.
Which is very different than "normal" for the eldest son of the Greshams of Greshambury when the estate he is to inherit is much reduced from the time of his grandfather, yet not entirely unrelated.

As Picketty noted in "Capital", 19th century literature is laden with references to how many pounds per year the affluent characters are believed to have. In the Trollope novel I just finished, sufferage is becoming more universal, but is still limited to men who hold property at least equivalent to that of a small town publican. So, a seat in the legislature in 1870 might only be decided by 900 voters. Obviously, similar social structure existed in ancient Greece or Rome.

Our notions of "freedom" or "independence" are bound up with the notions related to citizenship. So, a level of FI that is not sufficient to also purchase the trappings of "citizenship" such as a set address does not qualify. Obvious example of what I mean is that I do not declare myself to be financially independent on the basis of a spending budget which currently includes a male housemate who pays all the bills, although this would have been "normal" in 1959. However, if I could vote from the address of my permaculture project, I might.

Anyways, there is a reason (or cluster of reasons) why the diagram in "ERE" shows the Renaissance Man to be above the Working Man, beside the Business Man, and only linked at corner point to the Salary Man. The Salary Man is the type who most strongly identifies with profession BECAUSE of high relative level of investment. Even putting the Renaissance Quadrant aside, compare/contrast "I am a lawyer" with "I own a pizza parlor, play semi-pro baseball, and practice law."

Jin+Guice
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Re: Refusal of Work and Employability

Post by Jin+Guice » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:59 am

@c_L: I'm still seeing two different arguments, one about conformity and one about barriers to entry. The link is that the more options you have in employment/ employers, the less you have to worry about either.

For me ERE frees you from the need to worry about conformity. Maybe you need to worry about conformity for the 5 years you are working, but that's a pretty short amount of time, during which time I can put up with working consecutively and shaving or whatever. Semi-ere frees me even more because now I don't need to work 5 years (which for a lot of us is more like 10-15 years) consecutively. Once I have fuck you money I can stop worrying as much because if I get fired I'll be able to wait until I find something else. Not worrying about conformity also leads to less conformity, because, as others have pointed out, sometimes the constraints are in your head and your employer doesn't actually require them. This would also be true if you could easily switch modes of employment or employers in the standard ERE plan.

Barriers to entry is different. You can't overcome these with FU money. However, I think you can overcome this with a renaissance mindset and a bit of freedom. If I NEED to be an astronaut or tenured university professor then I'm screwed (out of retiring in 5 years). But why do I want to do those things? I bet most astronauts and professors don't actually like all of the tasks required for their jobs. What aspect of the job do you actually like? You can become very educated about a specific field without being a leading researcher in it. If you NEED to be something that takes 25 years to really become, you can still do it. Saving some money and living frugally isn't going to stop you. You will still need to play the game and overcome barriers to entry, but you would have to do that anyway.

Even something like doctor is still achievable. Becoming a doctor sucks from an ERE perspective because it's expensive and time consuming. If you really NEED to do it though, it's still less than a decade of your life. I think it'd be totally achievable to become a doctor, work for 8 years, pay off your debt and reach FI. 16 years is a long time, but this is something you really really super wanted to do. I don't think most people want to go through the schooling without the payoff of a long career as a highly paid doctor, but if that's true, did you really want to be a doctor?
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:44 am
Even putting the Renaissance Quadrant aside, compare/contrast "I am a lawyer" with "I own a pizza parlor, play semi-pro baseball, and practice law."
What I'm saying is, this difference in mindset is huge for this discussion. If you ARE the thing you do, which can only be one thing that you MUST do, then you are going to have to worry a lot about both conformity and barriers to entry. If you can do multiple things, none of which you must do, and which you select with some thought towards both conformity required and barriers to entry, then you can worry a lot less about employability.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Refusal of Work and Employability

Post by classical_Liberal » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:09 am

I think you are both basically making the same point. I tend to agree that we overestimate barriers to future potential employment. I also agree that some type of very part time job that provides enough for anyone even near the 1-2 JAFI is super easy to come by. However, I'm moving past the money/means to survive thought. That's easy, plus I'm near FI anyway. I'm thinking more in terms of what opportunities are closed when we lose conformity to expectations or employability. I'm not sure if he's reading along, but @unemployable has talked about his struggles, although I'm not sure of all the details.

My issue is that I find a lot of things fascinating. Sure I could find some low-level job in one of those fascinating areas and make more than enough to support myself. The key word there being "low-level". That wont agree with my personality for long. What I don't want to do is have to spend a bunch of time "retraining" to get involved in something interesting latter in life. I'm curious in how I can make myself look as employable as possible to as many occupations as possible, with minimal amount of time wasted trying to look normal. Since my situation is about to change from "salary-man", now may be the time for me to act to maintain the cover of normal. Maybe it's just not possible, or maybe I'm underestimating the opportunities available out there one I go completely freelance for c_L enterprises.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Refusal of Work and Employability

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:34 am

classical_Liberal wrote: The key word there being "low-level". That wont agree with my personality for long.
:lol:

This is the major difference between the ENTP and the ENTJ. "Exploration" simply requires access and autonomy, but "Leadership" requires a crew and some structure. Since I can rise to leadership if/when required, I sometimes do, but then often regret it, because then find myself more stuck than if I stayed solo. OTOH, sometimes I choose to take on more responsibility or contract with others, so that I will stay stuck. Depends.

Anyways, one obvious easy answer would be that you could start or become involved in a charitable/non-profit organization. I have found that this is a much easier means by which to maintain or achieve access to status than paying for re-training. However, you will be shooting yourself in the foot a bit, if you attempt to be valued as "man" rather than " resume", if you also plan on moving around a good deal.

SustainableHappiness
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Re: Refusal of Work and Employability

Post by SustainableHappiness » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:16 am

Jin+Guice wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:51 pm
If ERE is about one thing to me, it's about not having to give a single fuck about something like "employability."
If you enjoy a job and are willing to commit time and effort to it to the point where you do not care to climb any ladders or move employers. Isn't that another way to avoid giving a fuck about employability? Enjoyable employment = No need for employability? And as noted, low expenses expands your options for enjoyable work.

Maybe some people who seem institutionalized and are content in their role, are partially just avoiding the need to put brainpower to being employable on the job market? But that seems like a fine line to walk between contentment and fear.

Jin+Guice
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Re: Refusal of Work and Employability

Post by Jin+Guice » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:09 pm

@c_L: It's interesting, with what you've said, that you're worried about conformity. I'd be more worried about the barriers to entry in your case. Like the none low-level job in the interesting field requiring x years of experience and some degree. There's usually some way to back door your way into stuff though, especially when you don't need the money. It's amazing where showing up somewhere, truly giving a fuck about something and not immediately demanding to be paid can get you.

I think it's about asking yourself what you are really interested in and what you might want to do before you let someone tell you what to do or what you're not allowed to do.



@SustainableHappiness: I think we are in agreement. Enjoyable work is great. Being stressed about employability is something that comes from within. If you're content doing the thing your employer wants you to do anyway then... great. I'd still count that as not giving a fuck about employability.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Refusal of Work and Employability

Post by classical_Liberal » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:26 am

@J+G
I think lack of conformity is a large barrier to entry. Sure some jobs require degree "X", or experience "Y" as a height requirement. But many will allow entry at a reasonable level if you can show that you look the part. Too long out of the workforce and you don't look any part anymore. There needs to be some form of plausible deniability or excuse. I'm just wondering if I should somehow preempt the issue with some form of an alibi.

@7WB5
When one of your projects runs into leadership issues let me know! :lol: Seriously though, charitable organizations are the bane of an ENTJ's existence. The inefficiency of volunteers is legendary. Every time I've tried volunteer work I end up more frustrated than Bill Clinton when Hillary hides his Viagra on Victoria Secret's Fashion show day.

Jean
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Re: Refusal of Work and Employability

Post by Jean » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:11 am

Lack of comformity was in my case à barrier. I could have gone around it, but sure was it there.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Refusal of Work and Employability

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:35 am

classical_Liberal wrote:When one of your projects runs into leadership issues let me know! :lol:
Okay, but then who's going to actually do the work?

Frita
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Re: Refusal of Work and Employability

Post by Frita » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:16 pm

@Jean
I, too, have smacked against lack of conformity as well. No, thanks, I can’t turn a blind eye to students being manhandled by the director. No, thanks, I draw the line when he is physically abusive (in addition to verbal, which I disliked but it as more butting up to the line) toward me. If that’s what I have to do to be a teacher here, I won’t conform ever. Actually, withdrawal is nest egg prevention as I can exclude myself from any future lawsuit.

Jin+Guice
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Re: Refusal of Work and Employability

Post by Jin+Guice » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:30 am

@c_L: This has not been my experience, but maybe I'm not trying to get the jobs you're talking about? It's been my experience that there are a lot of jobs available that don't care about conformity, at least not in the specific haircut, clean shave, consistent work history sense.

I again posit that you can get around the need to conform by not needing a specific job. If you must do job X for company Y with title Z, then ya, you're going to have to conform to what they want. If you must do job X, then you're freer than the previous person. If you must use skill W, but can see multiple modes of employment which utilize it... you see where I'm going.

On the other side of the coin, as long as you are doing cool shit, people probably won't care about employment gaps and employment opportunities just sort of pop up. If you quit a job to watch TV for three years and then realize "oh shit, I need to get a job," you're in a way different spot than if you extensively research a topic that's interesting to you while trying to start your own business and travel the world and then think, "hmmmm, this job sounds like it might be interesting."

I actually think the greater risk is taking work you're not interested in or conforming just because you think you have to. Inertia is really powerful.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Refusal of Work and Employability

Post by classical_Liberal » Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:29 pm

@J+G
Thanks, that was helpful.

theanimal
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Re: Refusal of Work and Employability

Post by theanimal » Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:47 pm

This kind of ties into the other thread about friends and family. Jacob questioned what the benefits were of more social time. Well one obvious one is opportunities from those you interact with. You can't pick your family but you can pick friends. Are they ones who are doing interesting things and coming up with new opportunities? I had a 2 year time off work and got a job after being offered one through a friend (granted I was doing something cool in that time). Most of my jobs and cool things I've done outside of work have been the result of knowing people or putting myself out there to get to know others. There is a lot of talk about cultivating opportunity and serendipity in terms of financial decisions in the FI sphere but the same thing applies to employment and social circles as well. If you build a strong social network, I don't think you have to worry as much about things like being clean shaven and what happens on your resume. You can have your cake and eat it too.

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unemployable
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Re: Refusal of Work and Employability

Post by unemployable » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:13 pm

classical_Liberal wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:09 am
I'm not sure if he's reading along, but @unemployable has talked about his struggles, although I'm not sure of all the details.
I am, but I don't have a good place to jump in. It's as if there are Wheaton levels of this and I'm too many ahead of the rest of you.

I quit my last real job in mid-2010. I had a finalist stage, on-site interview (they flew me out, etc) as recently as 2015 and had another interview in 2017 where I was about to do the onsite but then they decided not to hire anyone. I stopped really looking in 2012; interviewing is basically my least favorite thing that I subject myself to occasionally doing.

Frita
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Re: Refusal of Work and Employability

Post by Frita » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:43 pm

unemployable wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:13 pm
I am, but I don't have a good place to jump in. It's as if there are Wheaton levels of this and I'm too many ahead of the rest of you.
What would the Wheaten levels look like? I tend to think of it along the lines of Ladders of Awareness: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10096

classical_Liberal
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Re: Refusal of Work and Employability

Post by classical_Liberal » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:31 pm

unemployable wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:13 pm
I am, but I don't have a good place to jump in. It's as if there are Wheaton levels of this and I'm too many ahead of the rest of you.
You're welcome to teach me like a child, if it so pleases you. :D I'm curious if you think the thoughts here are shooting towards the target or completely off base.

@theanimal
I've always assumed serendipitous opportunities will come their way in a life of ERE. Sounds like it's happening for you. You've also spent a pretty big chunk of time training for stuff as well. Is it worth it?

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unemployable
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Re: Refusal of Work and Employability

Post by unemployable » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:47 pm

classical_Liberal wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:31 pm
You're welcome to teach me like a child, if it so pleases you. :D I'm curious if you think the thoughts here are shooting towards the target or completely off base.
Well, financial security means not having to worry about job security. And If you're worried about employability, you're not exceptionally good at your job and/or still pretty far from actually being able to retire.

I don't believe in a duty to work, but do believe in a duty not to be a burden on the public wealth.

A lot of the financial threads are this way too. A lot of what people talk about I've been on the front lines for... I've met with Bridgewater and GMO and Pimco and so on. But saying what I have to say takes too much work, feels too much like work and people won't listen anyway.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Refusal of Work and Employability

Post by classical_Liberal » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:56 pm

Well, your thoughts on the financial threads don't go unread. Your comments about developed Europe being a value trap has insidiously invaded my mind and actually changed my decisions about asset allocation a little, so there's that.

I don't really worry about job security, nor obtaining jobs in a field I've already mastered to a large extent. I'm more so thinking trying new things, or maybe using previous experience to venture into new directions. Trying to stay employable for those situations in the future is my main goal. Maybe I'm one of the few on here who actually think a J.O.B. within interesting fields and in healthy doses can be a really good thing. Entry level work is always possible, but it's also generally not so enticing after basics are learned.

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