Full Time Jobs?

Hacking employment, improving work, professional development
shadow
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:18 pm

Full Time Jobs?

Post by shadow » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:06 am

Section 5.1.2 of the ERE book encourages using homeotelic solutions to problems (solving more than one at a time instead of solving one at the cost of solving another), and even cites someone working a full time job as an example of a heterotelic response.

This would lead me to conclude it's better to have several diversified income streams at once which may or may not be considered "jobs."

I know that many here on the forums have set their lives up like the above, and the idea is nothing new, but I wonder why most people choose to go through the "accumulation phase"?

Isn't it more effective to immediately begin building other income streams which will replace at least partially job income, and leave as soon as possible, instead of committing to reaching some ERE number then quitting?

Stahlmann
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:05 pm

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by Stahlmann » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:16 am

I decided to not join in the last topic as discussion about "easy and simple methods" baffled me a bit.., but here I must intervene :lol:

Isn't it like it would be to difficult for most people to acomplish such results? or there's simple no such opportunities?

such solutions are good on paper, but much harder to accomplish IRL.

entry level in any white collar job - you're assumed to focus on "personal growth" as there's "advancement" around next corner and you spend and least 8h here

side jobs - how much time there's after FT job and sleeping?

business - having customers base, knowing given field (it doesn't happen overnight).

investing - having money, being very smart

shadow
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:18 pm

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by shadow » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:41 pm

@Stahlmann
I also thought this was why but given the extremely(hehe) low col most everyone here has and the fact most of them have already acquired skills, would it really be that hard to swing it?
Say, a part time, serious time spent on investing, and a tiny business or two on the side.

George the original one
Posts: 4726
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
Location: Wettest corner of Orygun

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by George the original one » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:05 pm

shadow wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:41 pm
Say, a part time, serious time spent on investing, and a tiny business or two on the side.
Problem #1: Part-time wages are usually crap compared to full time. Before I retired, my hourly wage was in the $45/hr range and it's awfully, awfully tough to find a part-time wage with guaranteed hours that can match that.

Problems #2 & #3: investing and businesses are not guaranteed income.

If you can easily meet, and preferably exceed, expenses with the part-time job, then it makes sense to take a flyer on investing & businesses. Couples have an advantage here, as one partner can do the boring full-time job while the other partner takes the flyer.

RealPerson
Posts: 779
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:33 pm

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by RealPerson » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:39 pm

A part time gig as a way to decrease the drawing down of post retirement capital is an excellent way to mitigate the sequence risk, market downturns, etc. IIRC Michael Kitces discussed this very well in his podcast with the Mad Fientist. Especially if the side gig is fun for you. He gives the example of an IT guy who became a bartender to feed his extrovert nature. I know someone who loves to be outside and mows lawns for people who work FT. He loves it. How about a PT barista in a small boutique coffee shop?

A side gig or side business while you work FT, or worse yet, several PT jobs instead of a FT job, see comments by others above. That strikes me as the worst possible setup.

C40
Posts: 2280
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:30 am
Location: Western U.S.
Contact:

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by C40 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:27 pm

Yes.

But... For me.. at least so far, my earning power was way higher back in my engineering career. It's possible to get part time engineering work, but... not nearly as possible as full-time. Being a worker-bee / cog in a machine is very efficient. In a well-run company, with the right kinds of people working on the right kinds of things, the potential impact I had on results was really high. By myself, so far, it's small beans.

When I was working full time, my hourly income was quite high - particularly when I was making like $100k but had good control over my working hours and really only worked ~30 hours per week. So with bonuses, I was making ~$85 per hour. Most of the part time and entrepreneurial income sources I have in mind won't result in anywhere near that much $/hour. Not even close. At all. Of course, I could work smarter - on things that are more scalable in output with the same work input.. I may try that more in the future. In the areas I have experience with, it takes a lot knowing the playing field, knowing types and durations of trends, etc. Things I don't care about right now.



-----


And - that Michael Kitches episode on the Mad Fientist is one of my favorite personal finance podcast episodes ever. Anyone readying this who hasn't heard it yet - listen to it. For an ERE audience, it's probably not going to produce eureka revelations, but, it's still good.

TopHatFox
Posts: 1915
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:07 pm
Location: FL; 24

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by TopHatFox » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:51 am

I think western culture is designed around ppl working 8 hours m-f and partying/buying stuff on weekends and celebrating on holidays. Because of this, most of the available jobs are designed to be full time, especially the ones with benefits and high pay.

it’d be cool if adult life were designed with part-time roles in mind, but then we’d all have time to revolt or something. lol

Stahlmann
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:05 pm

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by Stahlmann » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:03 am

TopHatFox wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:51 am
I think western culture is designed around ppl working 8 hours m-f and partying/buying stuff on weekends and celebrating on holidays. Because of this, most of the available jobs are designed to be full time, especially the ones with benefits and high pay.

it’d be cool if adult life were designed with part-time roles in mind, but then we’d all have time to revolt or something. lol
it seems to be ((consensus)) between workers' rights activists and capitalists, being rather pushed towards capitalist side for the last 30+ years.

as always people who put a bit more effort and (usually somehow) located in richer countries will say this is only capitalism victory. this why we can observe radical leftist movement (rather only) in Africa or SEA. let it sink in for a moment...

thegreatvoid

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by thegreatvoid » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:53 am

Stahlmann wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:03 am
it seems to be ((consensus)) between workers' rights activists and capitalists, being rather pushed towards capitalist side for the last 30+ years.
Libertarian here, who really dislikes socialism and bureaucracy , but I would definetley agree with your statement.

For example ; in 2018 Austria introduced the new 12-hour work day . Now your empoyer can demand you to work a 12 hour shift, without being paid overtime. The argument for this, was the low economic growth and being more competitive , as a ot of factories have moved to Poland, Sovakia, Romania or Asia.

Keynes predicted that we woud only work 15 hours a week in the future... more like 15 hours a day :? :lol:

Stahlmann
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:05 pm

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by Stahlmann » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:11 am

For example ; in 2018 Austria introduced the new 12-hour work day . Now your empoyer can demand you to work a 12 hour shift, without being paid overtime.
wow, I heard that such idea was planned (only) in Hungrary.
they also opened market for Ukraininas in (at least) Germany starting today.
any other recent developments in DACH area? somebody wanna stagnate/lower wages in your area :lol:

My Glorious Country is also tampering with Labour law recently.
The argument for this, was the low economic growth and being more competitive , as a ot of factories have moved to Poland, Sovakia, Romania or Asia.
as many jobs are here in 500-1k EUR (border of pain in the ass of your manager - as somebody stated in the internet :lol: - reserved for entry managerial roles or professionals who "made it"), it is interesting who took the rest :lol:

(yep, I'm aware that new factories won't be setup for free... however "creative destruction" is maybe fancy term from some egg heads, nice to read in HS/on wiki, but it's no more fun when you're on the wrong side of the deal)


Libertarian here, who really dislikes socialism and bureaucracy
so... what do you propose :lol:?
or are you just on winning side?

shadow
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:18 pm

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by shadow » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:42 pm

George the original one wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:05 pm
If you can easily meet, and preferably exceed, expenses with the part-time job, then it makes sense to take a flyer on investing & businesses.
This is exactly what I was considering. To take the number thrown out earlier in the thread -- even if you cut an hourly wage of $45 in 4, you have a wage of $11.25/hr.

$11.25/hr * 20hr/wk * 50wk/yr = $11,250/year.

Not great, but this seems doable to me for a few reasons.

1) many of the forum members here have annual expenses easily under $11,250 (not to say that is easy at all, I have a lot of respect for these people, but it doesn't seem out of reach for someone with dedication).

2) $11.25/hr is, in my opinion, a very conservative estimate.

3) 20 hours a week leaves a lot of time, and if the spare time is put to good use I would have a hard time believing one would make NO money (or save no money) from the pursuits, even if none were spectacular successes.


Clearly a full time career would most often lead to higher earning overall. But I see this idea as reducing one's dependence on money instead of increasing the supply of money.

Stahlmann
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:05 pm

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by Stahlmann » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:29 pm

Interesting reasoning.

However I would say that most part time jobs are availble in hcol areas (namely cities) and it is easy to break the budget with housing alone. Yep, I'm aware of ere budget vision (in semi monetary terms) as housing+food+100$ allowance, but... still nobody arrives at this level instantly. Or just preferences are different.

Anyway good to see trials to break 'high income and average expenses' schemes over here :p

Anyway2
I dont want to give any advice about tertiary education/next move after hs or impose any pressure, but be careful to some degree.

You should take into account some future visibility of your cv. Ba/trade diploma shows that you were able to follow some standarised instructions in world where most of your peers will own such credentials... or maybe I just lack "urge to be entrepreneurial" and it would be differently rated in usa.

Good luck.

shadow
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:18 pm

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by shadow » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:24 pm

Stahlmann wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:29 pm
However I would say that most part time jobs are availble in hcol areas (namely cities) and it is easy to break the budget with housing alone. Yep, I'm aware of ere budget vision (in semi monetary terms) as housing+food+100$ allowance, but... still nobody arrives at this level instantly. Or just preferences are different.
...
Ba/trade diploma shows that you were able to follow some standarised instructions in world where most of your peers will own such credentials
Excuse me for the confusion, "immediately" meant as soon as one begins their career or decides to pursue ERE which in my case would be after graduating college (impractical not to go at this point). The part time job could still be pursued in the same way as a traditional career just much slower as there is less time put in -- treating the career as an important module but one of several. This way higher earnings could be achieved (and likely more opportunities given that one has some skills in their profession).

This eliminates many lines of work, especially those with very high earning ceilings, but there are still plenty to be explored.

Stahlmann
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:05 pm

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by Stahlmann » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:39 pm

It seems that full time is required after "serious" ba/trade diploma, especially in countries with harder push towards work centric culture ("because our offer is opportunity for you, this not place to fool around" etc.). Sometimes one full time gig is not enough :p ;(

What i can offer is only perspective from a bit cynic, not so much older, a bit unhappy guy from different part of the world:

It boils down to
Q: This may work for you, but it would never work for me.
A: You might say the same about calculus, reading, walking, or whatever, but is this your problem or mine? 😉 Regardless, don’t get too involved in copying what I do.
Ps. Are you going to college at 16? Have you had tracking education?
This is nice advantage compared to many people.

shadow
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:18 pm

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by shadow » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:46 pm

Thank you for the advice, I think you are right that the kind of job to make this work would have more to do with luck than planning.

PS. I am 17 now, going to college this fall. I skipped a grade.

classical_Liberal
Posts: 800
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:05 am

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by classical_Liberal » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:00 pm

Stahlmann wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:29 pm
However I would say that most part time jobs are availble in hcol areas (namely cities) and it is easy to break the budget with housing alone.
Not true. I currently reside in BFE Midwest, USA. High school kids get $12-14/hr for part time jobs here. Yes, the very small towns are dying, but the small-mid sized towns/cities that represent the hub of rural areas are, generally, doing very well. This will obviously vary by region, but there are at least as many rural regions doing very well, as there are bad ones.

Stahlmann
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:05 pm

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by Stahlmann » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:08 pm

So new factlet in SI database :p good for usa folks.

I m more focused on... looking for something in 10-30% range of income in (not so) top city of my country (so thats why my skewed opinion on high rent in hcol areas (*)) .

10% version is or was possible by living in dormitory paying a bit with seniority card. Non subsidized options are rather... hard to spot.

(*) apart ppp or pure exchange musings, there is other method of comparing prices which stands as follow: many prices in our country are very familiar to the prices in the west after we "shorten" currency sign of euro or usd (second reason why i dared to post). This isn't so stupid as my male friends from work pay at least 700 per person for small bachelor flats (yes, key word here, but i disagree a bit...), they live with their gfs (so n=2 couples). Will check details today and confirm.

This thought from above paragraph sounds crazy but...
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/c ... 2=Poland&c

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/c ... ing=getDis
(Holy god ;()

Google translate this
https://www.google.com/amp/s/forsal.pl/ ... ensji.html

So above thoughts are based on mixed post from internet with expectations of emigrants of new homeland vs view of people who stayed in home country and dont like geographical neighbours. Each side was probably on different level with handling money. Hmm.


Anyway...

Normies rather complain about housing situation too with images of "deaths cells" made in the sims game captioned with "good area, all amenities [as toilet, kitchen and bed are REALLY located nearby each other], price only 1000 without rent" (***))

I ve seen offer for 700 (including utilities) in good area ... but for place in 5 person room. I ve seen room for 600, but that was ramshackle (30 negative comments in fb discussion below offer, tbh was thinking about contacting with person who posted it).

(***) we have division of housing in my country: with rent and no rent. But in both cases you pay rent ;d
Explained on above example:
With rent: you pay 1000 for rent and something extra for utilities. Now you dont care.
No rent stated in title of advertisment: you pay 1000 (this is money for person who is renting to you) and for example 500 (the person who rented the flat to you will pay this amount to the rental housing agency...) and something extra for utilities. Now you dont care.

No, this not the issue with ability to use search engines on renting sites... people avoid intentionally posting real "rent" fee as they can think only as "in my pocket this guy will leave only 1000. So i will post offer with 1000 value".

(yes, this important even if you are sharing only one room as in greater fool theory...)

No, there isnt enough "no second rent fee" housing on the market.

I shitpost a bit as this somehow interesting problem in situation where we intercross: low earnings, not so high earning potential ceiling, having a feeling "i pushed it already further than my consumerist friends", dont want to stay in workforce too long.

Self reflection after this edition of confessions: yep, it seemed that 300 budget included living in shared room. Yep, i know the term inflation. Probably i havent pushed it hard enough. Yep, probably there is need to go deeper than simple ere blog post.

Btw i live with parents.

Edit: probably i will copy this entry to my personal blog as it turned to somekind summary about where i m. Now it should make some goals.

Nonetheless... happy new year everyone.

To the op: as with everything it depends :lol:

Jin+Guice
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:15 am

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by Jin+Guice » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:05 pm

I am basically doing this right now. I have one main gig that pays very highly and several side gigs that don't pay as well. I would work harder at getting side gigs if I needed them and probably go for another part-time job if I lost my main gig. I have 3 degrees in 3 different areas and a professional certification in another area. I'm starting 1-3 businesses this year, all low-cost to start and all based on things I already know how to do. I have very low expenses. I sort of accomplished this by accident and I can't give you a blueprint of how to do it. All I can tell you is, it's there if you want it. It's probably quicker to just get a high-paying job and work for 5-7 years, if you have that option, have low expenses and are gung-ho about FIREing, especially if you are interested in a field that pays high.

However, I've been working my way through https://livingafi.com and holy shit, this dude's life sounds terrible. He claims to really love the field he's in, but he still hates his job. I've never had to put up with 90% of the bullshit he talks about.

C40
Posts: 2280
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:30 am
Location: Western U.S.
Contact:

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by C40 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:33 pm

shadow wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:46 pm
I skipped a grade.
YEAH BUDDY!

BRUTE
Posts: 3803
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Full Time Jobs?

Post by BRUTE » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:57 am

everybody wants to be in 3rd grade but nobody wants to study them heavy math books!

Post Reply