Call for moderators (new and old)

[jacob]

We used to have a rather large team of moderators. However, the user status was lost in the migration, so anyone who was a moderator and who's interested in continuing that status/privileges, please tell either me or bigato.

Also, if anyone else wants the job, let me know.

The forum participants are extremely self-moderating, so the "job" mainly consists of deleting spam and approving new users.

[m741]

I'd be happy to moderate, but on the old forum, there was never anything to do (I never saw any spam).

[jennypenny]

Ill do it again. The only thing I ever had to do was delete double posts when the forum timed out and we probably won't even have to do that anymore.

Will we be able to change usernames for people who need it?

[KevinW]

I'm interested.

[jacob]

You have all been added to the moderator group.

[Spartan_Warrior]

Would it be possible to develop an official forum policy toward moderation?

In the past it seemed laissez-faire, more concerned with, as Jenny and m741 said, deleting duplicate posts and monitoring for any spam. Without naming any names, some of the new moderators seem to be taking the job more zealously than that. I am aware of multiple threats and at least one actual instance of a non-spam post by a legitimate poster being deleted for being "off-topic".

I don't think "off-topic" posts are a huge offense, and a great number of the threads in the forum become off-topic, so it seems haphazard to have moderators singling out what they find to be off-topic and deleting it. IMO if a post isn't clearly spam--that is, an irrelevant advertisement, blatant trolling, etc--it should be allowed to remain on the forum. Whether others agree or not is a matter for debate, but I think 1) all moderators should follow a single standard policy for moderation rather than enforcing their own rules on the fly and 2) if that policy is anything other than the obvious (that is, only true spam will be deleted) it should be made known publicly.

Thanks.

[secretwealth]

S_W, no need to anonymize.

Sshawn's post was deleted not because it was off-topic, but because it was a personal insult. It has been forum policy, at least since I was made a moderator a long while ago, that personal insults directed at forum members or non-forum members would be deleted. I have not deleted an off-topic post since becoming a moderator (although I did once have a post deleted for that reason long ago).

If you believe that I or anyone else should be stripped of moderator powers because of an abuse of power, I recommend making that request explicitly, either publicly or privately, however you feel comfortable.

[jennypenny]

Here is the entire text from sshawnn's post yesterday...

@secretwealth

I have stated in comments before that I believe the central idea that keeps us here is freedom. That freedom can be stated in several different concrete and abstract ways particular to each individual that wishes to pursue it.

Comments threatening deletion of what the OP considers "idealogical bugbears" seems very freedom restricting. Manipulation of threads through what one considers off topic is not a way to keep people engaged. In fact, I think it will do the opposite.

If anything gets deleted, consider deleting your threatening comment. If the community's take on your topic morphs into something irrelevant to you, consider creating your own blog. You seem to have enough material with all the topics you start here

Where is the personal insult? Does disagreeing with you automatically qualify a post as an insult?

Did that post really warrant a 'user warning' to sshawnn? I don't think so.

I vote for never deleting any posts unless they are spam. We're all big girls and boys around here. There is no need to moderate the discussions.

[jacob]

Here's the official policy (in order of priority):

Moderators are ONLY to delete:
1) Obvious SPAM. Sometimes, it's subtle, e.g. someone posts a link to a magazine that may be relevant. If in doubt, don't delete it and leave it to me.
2) Personal attacks on other forum members. Name calling, etc. ala youtube, reddit, yahoo, etc. is not okay. Lets try to keep things civilized. We can agree to disagree. Name calling helps no one and contributes to a negative atmosphere. I like to keep this as "the smartest forum on the internet" and that behavior is a negative.
3) Personal attacks on other non-forum members. E.g. "Let's discuss how this guy over on website.com is an idiot" is not okay. Ditto above. If you want to do battle on that level, don't be a coward, go to their hometurf and do it there.
4) Posts that are pretty much irrelevant to ERE by any stretch of the imagination. Don't post links to your favorite motorcycle brand, sports team, astronomy picture of the day, cooking recipe, etc. without at least describing why this is ERE-relevant. We want to keep the ERE signal/noise ratio high!

In general, if in doubt, don't do anything!

Moderators are NOT to delete:
1) Off-topic posts. Annoying as it may be the nuclear option is too strong for this. We do tend to drift but the way to deal with this is to point it out publicly and request people to stay on topic. Hopefully members will be civilized enough to respect this.

Finally, I have noticed an increasing trend of politicizing threads. As hard as it is, I'd like to request people to restrain themselves from blaming it on the other side. We're all smart enough to recognize both/several sides to each complex system AND we pretty much know by know who leans social and who leans libertarian and it's REALLY unproductive to rehash it at any opportunity. The early-retirement.org has a HARD rule against any kind of political mentioning whether it's intentionally political or not... probably because politics does become a problem if people aren't capable of policing their political impulses. I ask of all of you to keep politics to a minimum and keep it to the politics forum. As always, your first goal should be to provide helpful insights if you have any. Keep in mind that everybody is 1) pretty smart 2) have probably heard all the counter arguments already; you are almost guaranteed to NOT change anyone's political opinion in here. So don't even try, please!

Introducing politics ALMOST ALWAYS degenerates the discussion!

[secretwealth]

Introducing politics ALMOST ALWAYS degenerates the discussion!

I fully agree--which is why it'd be nice to have some option when this happens, since there are a few forum members who will shift a large number of topics towards their political bugbear.

The nuclear option is overly severe, but is there another option? This might be too unwieldy to implement, but what about a function where OPs of threads can request NO POLITICS in the first post of a thread (we can demarcate these with one of the post icons, like the yield sign). Then if any member diverts the discussion to politics, that post is quietly deleted.

The benefit of this system is that OPs have control over their topics. Some don't mind off-topic political rants infiltrating the threads. Some do. By flagging their own posts this way, they can control their posts instead of mods coming in to assert control. Mods, then, become enforcers of the OP's will rather than an authoritarian.

The downside is that this would be a bit labor intensive to execute for mods, but there are a lot of mods on what is a pretty small board, so that may not be too big of a problem.

Thoughts?

[Spartan_Warrior]

If you believe that I or anyone else should be stripped of moderator powers because of an abuse of power, I recommend making that request explicitly, either publicly or privately, however you feel comfortable.

I didn't, before I saw the actual content of the deleted post. Deleting that post was an abuse of power. Stripping you of your moderator powers would be a high penalty, but certainly calling you on it publicly and expecting better of you in the future is the least I will do.

[Spartan_Warrior]

The nuclear option is overly severe, but is there another option?

Ignore it?

[secretwealth]

Here is the entire text from sshawnn's post yesterday...

@secretwealth

I have stated in comments before that I believe the central idea that keeps us here is freedom. That freedom can be stated in several different concrete and abstract ways particular to each individual that wishes to pursue it.

Comments threatening deletion of what the OP considers "idealogical bugbears" seems very freedom restricting. Manipulation of threads through what one considers off topic is not a way to keep people engaged. In fact, I think it will do the opposite.

If anything gets deleted, consider deleting your threatening comment. If the community's take on your topic morphs into something irrelevant to you, consider creating your own blog. You seem to have enough material with all the topics you start here

Where is the personal insult? Does disagreeing with you automatically qualify a post as an insult?

Did that post really warrant a 'user warning' to sshawnn? I don't think so.

I vote for never deleting any posts unless they are spam. We're all big girls and boys around here. There is no need to moderate the discussions.

No, disagreeing with me does not automatically qualify a post as an insult, which is why several other posts from that thread (and others) were not deleted.

You do not want a "delete only spam" posts policy. Trust me, the level and frequency of insults that this board will see will make it a very unhappy place to be.

@S_W: You can interpret that post any way you want. I, for one, found it incredibly insulting, which is why I deleted it.

The problem with ignoring these hyperpoliticized, infantile non-sequiturs is that they demote the overall level of discourse on the forum.

[jacob]

Introducing politics ALMOST ALWAYS degenerates the discussion!

I fully agree--which is why it'd be nice to have some option when this happens, since there are a few forum members who will shift a large number of topics towards their political bugbear.

The nuclear option is overly severe, but is there another option?

I really hope we can keep things on-topic through cultural means, where the OP may request no politics (which in my ideal world wouldn't be necessary in the first place) and deal with any political comments by re-requesting the no politics. Avoiding politics is best done by simply ignoring any political statement rather than firing off the counter-broadside every time it appears. Don't feed the political trolls.

I'm not ready to proceed to legal means/enforcement (i.e. deleting posts). I think that stifles discussion way to much. I was once moderated on e-r.org for making a political statement when I used Mitt Romney's "I like to fire people" comment as an example of people taking things out of context.

So no, no other options.

[Spartan_Warrior]

Seriously? What about it was incredibly insulting? He said you had enough material to start a blog (which I suppose could be an insult--as an aspiring blogger I'd take it as a compliment myself). I feel like I've insulted you worse than that and my posts are still standing.

(But here I am getting off-topic. :b) *

I disagree that ignoring off-topic or politicized digressions is an inadequate solution. Discussions are organic creatures; only the interests of the participants drives the direction of the discourse. If an undesirable digression is shown no attention, it will usually die off on its own.

*In all seriousness this isn't off-topic at all because it shows exactly the kind of uneven, subjective enforcement that will take place with anything other than a "delete spam only" policy.

[Ego]

Here's the official policy (in order of priority):

Moderators are ONLY to delete:
1) Obvious SPAM. Sometimes, it's subtle, e.g. someone posts a link to a magazine that may be relevant. If in doubt, don't delete it and leave it to me.
2) Personal attacks on other forum members. Name calling, etc. ala youtube, reddit, yahoo, etc. is not okay. Lets try to keep things civilized. We can agree to disagree. Name calling helps no one and contributes to a negative atmosphere. I like to keep this as "the smartest forum on the internet" and that behavior is a negative.
3) Personal attacks on other non-forum members. E.g. "Let's discuss how this guy over on website.com is an idiot" is not okay. Ditto above. If you want to do battle on that level, don't be a coward, go to their hometurf and do it there.
4) Posts that are pretty much irrelevant to ERE by any stretch of the imagination. Don't post links to your favorite motorcycle brand, sports team, astronomy picture of the day, cooking recipe, etc. without at least describing why this is ERE-relevant. We want to keep the ERE signal/noise ratio high!

In general, if in doubt, don't do anything!

Moderators are NOT to delete:
1) Off-topic posts. Annoying as it may be the nuclear option is too strong for this. We do tend to drift but the way to deal with this is to point it out publicly and request people to stay on topic. Hopefully members will be civilized enough to respect this.

Finally, I have noticed an increasing trend of politicizing threads. As hard as it is, I'd like to request people to restrain themselves from blaming it on the other side. We're all smart enough to recognize both/several sides to each complex system AND we pretty much know by know who leans social and who leans libertarian and it's REALLY unproductive to rehash it at any opportunity. The early-retirement.org has a HARD rule against any kind of political mentioning whether it's intentionally political or not... probably because politics does become a problem if people aren't capable of policing their political impulses. I ask of all of you to keep politics to a minimum and keep it to the politics forum. As always, your first goal should be to provide helpful insights if you have any. Keep in mind that everybody is 1) pretty smart 2) have probably heard all the counter arguments already; you are almost guaranteed to NOT change anyone's political opinion in here. So don't even try, please!

Introducing politics ALMOST ALWAYS degenerates the discussion!

Local sluts Barak rain
Boggleheads Sshawnn same
Spats like this inane


Rhyming Haiku that breaks all the rules. Have at it. Nothing agains Sshawnn, his name just fit.

[Spartan_Warrior]

@Jacob: Thanks for the clarity. I like your rules in principle, but I do think it still leaves some grey area, as we're seeing, in terms of what constitutes a "personal insult". Perhaps you could even make it explicit, as you did with item 1. Spam, that not just personal attacks but OBVIOUS personal attacks can be deleted; personal attacks can be "subtle" too and "if in doubt, don't delete it and leave it to me". Just a suggestion, of course. Only because what I'm seeing here is a very "non-obvious" personal attack being deleted... so subtle I don't even see the personal attack.

@Ego: Breaks all the rules indeed... even the rules of Haiku.

[jacob]

Alright, new rule...

All moderators, from now on only enforce the SPAM rule. I'll take care of the insults, off-topics, etc.

FWIW,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insult
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_light

[Riggerjack]

I'd like to volunteer, with a few reservations. I'm fairly inconsistent in how much time I'm here, so while I can be helpful,the assistance may not be worth it.
also, as a poster who has had a thread immediately frozen, I may not judge content the same way current moderators do.
perhaps there is a limited moderator position that could be more openly dispersed to reduce overall workload? Work it like Craigslist, with flags for deletion?

[sshawnn]

Yesterday was the first time I have had forum material deleted in any forum I have been a part of. It took me back a bit because I truly did not intend to be poisonous. After looking at it from secretwealth's perspective, I can see why he may have took it hard. We exchanged PM's and I think all is well. Here is what I said....

My intention was to promote the irony that you created by threatening to delete posts that were disagreeable in a thread that previously discussed freedom and power. Your posting manner often draws pointed responses by others and this one attracted me.

I would have rather engaged you within the thread about my observation than you deleting the post.

My tone seemed civil to me. I should have done this.(smiley face) I enjoy reading most of your entries. (You start a lot of new entries and I sometimes wonder if you are panning for ideas in your professional endeavors.(I don't always agree with you but if you did have a blog, I would certainly read it.)) Your OP today was a very well written springboard for much discussion. I was surprised the thread went south as quickly as it did. It had a lot of potential.

As a responsible moderating czar,I would ask that you at least consider what the majority of forum members or other moderators would consider appropriate before deleting. I know the ways of the board. I have been a member longer and lurker possibly longer than you. I have seen you in hotter exchanges than got deleted today. I didn't say,"go post somewhere else if you don't like the response here.", you did. I apologize to you if hurt your feelings in the way I mentioned your blogging potential.

No hard feelings here, hope you feel the same

Shawn

secretwealth replied in a cordial manner.

@jacob I feel protective of this forum and shudder a bit when you have to become so active in the moderation. I hope things of this nature don't lead to unplugging.

@ego We are trying to be good here, man! (smiley) How about a legal Haiku if you use my name? haha