A wikipedia entry for ERE?

Post by **jacob** » Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:00 pm

Discovering that someone wrote an entry on ERE on everything2 has reignited my unhealthy and vain obsession with [some day] getting an entry for ERE on wikipedia.
No, seriously, I do think it would be somewhat relevant given the other entries on simple living, frugality, etc. I find on wikipedia. Wiki this _required_ criteria of notability but while that criteria is required, it doesn't seem to be _sufficient_ and whether page or not exists seems to depend highly on random factors in that some pages have lots of info and others (Joe Dominguez) have none at all(?!)
So the question is how does one go about establishing a page? It seems to be somewhat corny/overly selfpromotional to write it myself (maybe some misplaced Danish sentiments of modesty). Then again, maybe I just have an inflated sense of importance when it comes to ERE?
Any wikians/editors here?

J_ · Post by J_ » Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:18 pm

As I see the internet grow with ERE articles, and the need to have some propaganda about ERE, I second an entry wholeheartedly.

Please don't be modest, be the first one to write the entry yourself.

jennypenny · Post by **jennypenny** » Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:29 pm

They'll dump an article if Jacob writes it. To pass muster with Wiki, it will probably need the following:

*written by someone other than Jacob, or any obvious cross references (he couldn't write one about FIRE, and then have Nords write one about ERE)

*as many references as possible

*citations of other people with similar, yet distinct, approaches to the same subject (again, as many as possible)

*length (don't submit a partial hoping to add to it later, wait and submit a longer article)

*references to printed material (someone told me they like it because it comes up in searches--not sure how true that is)
Sometimes adding stubs to Wiktionary first, and refering to them in a subsequent article, helps get through the screening process.

chenda · Post by **chenda** » Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:32 pm

I agree, its a good idea Jacob.

DutchGirl · Post by **DutchGirl** » Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:55 pm

Maybe... Write it together, here, and then have it posted by one of us?

DividendGuy · Post by **DividendGuy** » Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:02 pm

I think having an ERE entry in Wikipedia would be fantastic!

Post by **jacob** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:03 am

Does anyone here have a track record of editing articles on wiki?
In my experience, someone has to take the lead on this (and by wiki guidelines, apparently not me) otherwise a group-effort is not going to get it done.
Also, is ERE big enough to be relevant? (I struggle with this. On the one hand, I think there are some large wiki pages already with people/things less or at least equally relevant (e.g. Mark Boyle, who did a cool project and appears to have as many adherents as ERE, has a rather large page); on the other hand, it's not like I have spent overly much time pursuing publicity which is a criteria for wiki; on the gripping hand, my favorite criteria is that many now use ERE as a concept/word on its one (e.g. "I went ERE" ...) which cinches it for me.
Here are what I think is a relevant page to mentioned on [at the sentence or paragraph level] if that's better than to start with an outright full article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_living (this could have a financial independence section) and the links therein e.g. FI, anticonsumerism, ...
============
If fully realize that summarizing ERE on a page is a BIG JOB (which is why it hasn't even been summarized on the ERE wiki.

Forsooth, my best attempt resulted in a 238 page book.
I think the everything2 page did a nice job of it though.
============
Aside from the everything2 link above here's a loose collection of official/big sources
There's one in the lifestyle edition Il 24 Ore which is kinda the Italian version of WSJ. It's in paper (sunday edition) and I can't find the online link (but I can dig for it and probably find it).
Interviews (podcast) from Survival Podcast and Paul Wheaton.
I presume most blogs don't count(?) --- otherwise there's a huge number of those.
Here are some newspapers, large blogs, etc.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... -your-life
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A ... =firefox-a

http://www.forbes.com/sites/financialfi ... your-help/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/financialfi ... ur-wealth/

and others
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/early-ret ... rtune.html
http://www.wisebread.com/book-review-ea ... nt-extreme

http://www.squidoo.com/early-retirement-extreme
http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/jacob ... nt-extreme
http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2011/02/ ... t-extreme/
http://www.bankrate.com/finance/retirem ... px#slide=5
http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/extreme.html

http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/extreme_book.html

jennypenny · Post by **jennypenny** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:44 am

@Jacob--(*not* being snarky) If you stopped blogging to try and drop out of the public eye, why would you want to draw attention to yourself with a Wiki entry? Have you changed your mind? Has DW? I guess I'm asking because you should make sure you're comfortable with renewed interest in you and your activities before anyone does a lot of work on an article. Even if great care is taken to focus an entry on the concept of ERE, it will still be associated with you.

Post by **jacob** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:56 am

@jennypenny - I'm assuming that the wiki format would emphasize the focus on the concept and practically completely eliminate the "personal interest" angle (as seen on TV).
For ERE I'm mostly interested in solidifying the concepts. Making the roots deeper. If the forest is to expand, I'm comfortable in letting it grow organically rather than promotionally (i.e. like weeds).
In terms of exposure, I think the new blogging format/angle has worked out pretty well. Also the fact that many others are now "graduating" which makes it clear that it's not just about what I do but about the concept. (I'm not so sure about a personal wiki page. I don't think I'm that interesting (yet).)

jennypenny · Post by **jennypenny** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:21 am

@Jacob--I understand the idea of solidifying the concepts. And I like the tree image. ERE has branched out to include a lot of different methods--homesteading v. nomad lifestyle, living off of a large capital base (Brave) v. multiple income streams(you) v. working as needed (riparian?), etc.
I just think there's a reason that the top three blog entries are:

Manifesto

How I became financially independent in 5 years

(and the infamous)How I live on $7,000 per year
It will be hard to tease yourself out of the concepts. Maybe re-titling some of the popular blog posts would help. People will always look for proof of concept and, up until recently, you were it. You'd have to find a way to make sure that others were mentioned almost as prominently in a Wiki entry, but without muddling the message with too many versions of ERE.

Post by **jacob** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:24 am

@jennypenny -

"You'd have to find a way to make sure that others were mentioned almost as prominently in a Wiki entry, but without muddling the message with too many versions of ERE."
I'm not quite sure what you mean here?
I see ERE defined as per the book (theoretically) and ideally/eventually by the ERE-wiki (practically). The blog can be considered my personal journal. The forum is everybody else's journal.

jennypenny · Post by **jennypenny** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:43 am

One of the tricks with Wiki is to show a unique concept that is also part of a larger movement. You have to show relevance by tying the article to other articles and published works. The theoretical concepts in ERE would need a setting among other previously published concepts (even if it's to show how different it is).
Obviously you can do whatever you want, but that would be one of my suggestions.
*as I reread this I still don't think I'm being clear so just ignore me. Sorry, worked all weekend and I think I've run out of words

m741 · Post by **m741** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:13 am

I've done some light wikipedia contributions a while back, various edits, added a few new pages, etc.
I think ERE is on the edge of the notoriety test. There's a general desire to limit the number of pages... for instance, pages for individual Pokemon are combined, or various characters in movies. I don't agree with this - why not have additional pages? But it is the trend and I wouldn't be surprised if the page was removed. Maybe not if it's really active or tied to other articles. My hunch is that ERE isn't quite notable enough, but it's tough to say. I definitely don't think Jacob himself is notable enough to warrant a page.
Adding pages for yourself is verboten (I assume the same goes for adding pages for something you've created).
I suppose we can put together a first draft on the ERE wiki and then drop it into wikipedia and make some finishing touches there. Worst case scenario, it gets deleted.

KevinW · Post by **KevinW** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:08 am

According to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:N

the notability litmus test is
has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject
with emphasis on the sourceS being plural.
What are the examples of significant coverage by reliable non-Jacob sources? There was that Forbes article. Anything else?

Post by **jacob** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:20 am

@m741 - I think it would be fair to at least get mentioned on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_living (actually, I think there are many others who should be there given some of which are already there.)
@KevinW - Kinda depends on what counts (significant seems somewhat qualitative?? ... e.g. compare to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_Rich_Slowly ) ... aside from the Italian paper, there has never been a full article exclusively about ERE in a newspaper(*). However, if the online version of the newspaper counts and a paragraph is enough then
(*) I suspect the fact that ERE is anti-advertising has something to do with it. The one interview I did (as far as I remember it was for the new ipad version of NYT?) never ran. I've talked to a few sympathetic journalists and they admit that getting it through the editor is a tough job.
http://moneyland.time.com/2011/06/07/fi ... h-my-feet/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... -your-life
http://www.forbes.com/sites/financialfi ... trategies/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/financialfi ... your-help/
http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/alp ... ugal-steps
http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/my- ... seriously-
... I can probably dig up a few more using google. I don't know of anything written at a level more significant than this.
Alternatively, google "early retirement" and see who's number 2. As a fun exercise, see who's number 3. That's gotta count for something too.

KevinW · Post by **KevinW** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:57 pm

The guidelines page repeatedly says that sources need not be written in English. So I think the Italian article is one solid source. I'm not a Wikipedian but I tend to think that article, plus the web sources, together meet the notability criterion.
I suppose we can put together a first draft on the ERE wiki and then drop it into wikipedia and make some finishing touches there. Worst case scenario, it gets deleted.
+1

dragoncar · Post by **dragoncar** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:37 pm

Lots of good discussion here. The number one thing I'll mention is that Wikipedia tends to disdain anything smelling of commercialism or advertising. So I'd be weary of including too much information on the book itself and focus on the movement.

Post by **jacob** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:23 pm

@dragoncar - I like the focus on the "movement". I think the Everything2 article did that really well too. One of the Forbes articles also describe it as a movement.
It also goes along with similar movements every so often (generational theory again, yay!), like late 1970s (YMOYL, Callenbach), 1930s (Borsodi, Nearing), 1850s (Walden) ... a 40/80 year cycle. (What happened in 1890?).
(Not sure movement is the right word, but I'm ok with it.)

Post by **jacob** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:23 pm

Here's the reference to the Italian newspaper.
Page 25, November 2010 issue of Ventiquattro (a mothnly attachment to Il Sole 24 Ore).
I have the pdf (in Italian) in case it's needed.

jennypenny · Post by **jennypenny** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:25 pm

I set up a page on the wiki for a draft (Article/Summary). I'll clean up the links when I get the chance. I threw up a basic structure, but change anything you want. It's just a launching point.
Jacob--you posted on a thread recently (replying to Ego about something?) with a little of the history of the development of ERE, but I can't find it. Do you remember where it is? It would help with a history section. The history section should start with bigger movements, generational stuff, YMOYL, and then move on to ERE specifically. You probably need to give some direction with this section.