On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

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IlliniDave
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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by IlliniDave »

suomalainen wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:17 am

One thing is not remotely like the other.
Our capital is surrounded by thousands of soldiers and a razor wire barrier (looks a lot like sections of the southern border, ironically). Governors are sending additional troops to Washington for the stated purpose of combating "misinformation". Current military and intelligence officials (including the CIA) are openly talking about turning the Eye of Sauron inward at "domestic terrorism". Words like "deprograming" are being used by government/elected officials. At the same time we have the so-called deplatforming movement. That same group of politicians/officials range from supportive to accepting of that movement. The primary focus of all of those phenomena happens to lie in the direction of people who would be supporters of the large majority of those politicians' rivals.

People in the traditional political center (~cL and myself) or somewhat to one side of the spectrum (like ffj) obviously have concerns about the trends and the potential connectivity. I can't speak for the other two, but to me it gets magnified when seeing fellow ordinary people supportive, dismissive, or worst of all, just denying it. We just had an election where we changed to what was billed as better leadership. I hope one day it emerges. In the meantime I don't blame anyone for running and hiding. Self-preservation is an inalienable right. Unfortunately that strains or breaks social connections sometimes. Brings to mind a refrain from an old song, "Times, they are a-changin'". I am already suspecting that my decision to just bleach my follow up "journal" inadequate. Sigh.

We'll see what happens in the fullness of time. My prediction is in the short term we'll see increasing withdrawal and isolation, which is likely the last thing we need to see surge as the pandemic hopefully begins to wind down.

AxelHeyst
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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by AxelHeyst »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:46 am
Why is it only some of the people old enough to have memory of the USSR that are deleting their accounts?
Alternative explanation: because only people too young to remember the USSR grew up *with* the internet, and have never had the experience of being able to speak their mind in a consequence-free context such as "with the boys down at the pub" or wherever it was people discussed politics before the internet. Older folks (gen x and older) tend to apply consequence-free thinking to the internet. Younger folks (millenials and younger) tend not to.

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Alphaville
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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by Alphaville »

regarding 6), politics and economics are inseparable. actually, politics and life are inseparable. the issue is how to discuss them in a reasonable manner. of course what is considered reasonable (overton window) changes with time. but you can't discuss economics or married vs polyamory life or consumer choices or pretty much anything without touching on the political. politics like money or water will always find a way, so maybe it's best to bring some self-awareness to the discussion rather than pretend it's not there?

regarding 5), i think the helpful community is not negated by the deletions, because help happens in the present. i understand that the forum can be a record of solutions, much like a wiki, but poring over the records of the justified ancients of mu has rarely given me any answers. even when stahlmann necros interesting old threads the continuity usually gets little traction and the op isn't around to answer anyway.

i've only been here for a year, so i lack nostalgia for mythical times, but i tend to see the forum as a live conversation rather than a book, and i treat it accordingly. we engage with those who are active regularly, i think.

this is not to say that your expectations for the forum may not be different, or that there isn't and even greater potential that is not being realized, but what i'm trying to say is that help is happening as we speak regardless and i hope that is not lost.

4) i think it's okay to continue to allow the option of deleting involuntarily compromising information, and i hope you keep it. i don't see why people need to delete their every post, when they maybe just need to remove info about their employer, or a picture of their house, or data about where they live, or how much money they have or whatever. in theory everyone should know not to reveal too much, but life changes, technology changes, risk changes, and everyone is learning as we go.

aside from all that: ere ideas almost by definition tend to attract people who have bigger paranoid streaks than "the sheeple" (lol) so perhaps freakouts will invariably occur, and that just may be something we need to accept? i mean, here we all are preparing for terminal catastrophe and trying to decouple from the world economy as an everyday matter rather than an exception, so the inevitable human drama will take on certain local characteristics.

i think also this thread in itself is magnifying the effect of the deletions. frankly i hadn't noticed the missing posts until i read this. i have seen fewer fights lately though. or maybe i'm dreaming.

suomalainen
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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by suomalainen »

I dunno, dave. Maybe I'm too nihilist for my own self-preservation, but I don't really see much difference from a historical perspective. Government is about power, right? Divided government is about decentralized power, on the theory that concentrated power can visit incredible destruction on "the people". I agree with this theory. Are there better systems? Maybe. But the key, I think, to any system I would support has to be decentralized power. Hence the contrast between the US and Russia. Is what is happening in the US concerning to me? Not really. It's just humans being humans. The people in power can bicker among themselves until the end of time and it doesn't bother me one iota. If any of them get too far out of line, there are votes, other branches of government or even colleagues to adjust the balance. This is what just happened - Trump lost the election; Trump got impeached; the Qanon lady got stripped of committee assignments. This is all normal course decentralized power in action. To the extent the Biden (or any future) administration similarly gets too far out of line with the mainstream, they'll be checked as well. The US has had slavery, Jim Crow laws, segregation, Japanese internment camps, the highest per capita imprisonment rate in the world, and the list goes on - it's not a perfect country by any stretch.

So, are times a-changin? Not that I can see. Maybe the identity of the people who are "running and hiding" has changed. But maybe it's good that people who used to be the chasers get to be the hiders. It's just part of the push and pull of ideas that has always existed in every human society.

Anyway, to me, it just sort of strikes me as paranoia. Yes, maybe one day Biden will throw all of his political opponents in jail and even jail those who march peacefully in support of his opposition. But I find that unlikely, not because Biden is some great, trustworthy leader, but because he will be checked by thousands of other people clamoring for their own power.

ETA: Trump was president for 4 years. Two facts: 1) he basically didn't arrest any of his opposition (Hillary ain't in jail), 2) notwithstanding the HOWLING of his opposition. In the US, you can HOWL away at people in power and they can't do anything to you (officially), except tweet at you. And as it turns out, the tweeting power is apparently quite limited as well.
Last edited by suomalainen on Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bankai
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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by Bankai »

@ Alphaville: Help happens in present for the person being helped, but that might be through reading someone's journal and realising what's possible. There's a reason why so many posts in 'Introduce Yourself' starts with 'I've been lurking...'. Consider that people you converse with are only a small fraction of registered users who in turn are only a small fraction of all people reading this forum. The biggest benefit of this place is the help silent majority gets from reading old posts. That's why butchering old threads is way worse than it seems to regulars.

Hristo Botev
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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by Hristo Botev »

Western Red Cedar wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:52 am
With that said, I received a wealth of information here over the last few years, and figured I owed it to the larger community to actively participate. My life and pursuit of financial independence is much richer as a result of this participation.
Well said, and ditto.

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Dream of Freedom
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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by Dream of Freedom »

This whole they can just go to an internet archive thing is stupid. It's a little like saying that a soldier shouldn't wear a flack jacket and helmet because they could just get shot in the neck. Of course you are better off with partial protection than none. Most people will not go to the trouble if it's not easily accessible. So it stops most people from seeing it.

I have deleted some posts but it hasn't been for privacy as much as a few days later I decided it wasn't high enough quality. In these circumstances it actually betters the forum.

On deleting a journal that is targeted and localized. It's different than just nuking everything.
Last edited by Dream of Freedom on Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

IlliniDave wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:18 am
Our capital is surrounded by thousands of soldiers and a razor wire barrier (looks a lot like sections of the southern border, ironically). Governors are sending additional troops to Washington for the stated purpose of combating "misinformation". Current military and intelligence officials (including the CIA) are openly talking about turning the Eye of Sauron inward at "domestic terrorism". Words like "deprograming" are being used by government/elected officials. At the same time we have the so-called deplatforming movement. That same group of politicians/officials range from supportive to accepting of that movement. The primary focus of all of those phenomena happens to lie in the direction of people who would be supporters of the large majority of those politicians' rivals.

People in the traditional political center (~cL and myself) or somewhat to one side of the spectrum (like ffj) obviously have concerns about the trends and the potential connectivity. I can't speak for the other two, but to me it gets magnified when seeing fellow ordinary people supportive, dismissive, or worst of all, just denying it.
What is worse is that even discussing how the above is a problem makes you a target. What was previously common sense is now outside the Overton window. Adhering to the current window means I am not even able to believe my own eyes.
AxelHeyst wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:26 am
Alternative explanation: because only people too young to remember the USSR grew up *with* the internet, and have never had the experience of being able to speak their mind in a consequence-free context such as "with the boys down at the pub" or wherever it was people discussed politics before the internet. Older folks (gen x and older) tend to apply consequence-free thinking to the internet. Younger folks (millenials and younger) tend not to.
Which makes the younger folks great candidates for groupthink and brainwashing.







Did the people who left the forum after 2016-7 fear they would be cancelled for believing their own eyes?

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Alphaville
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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by Alphaville »

Bankai wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:52 am
Consider that people you converse with are only a small fraction of registered users who in turn are only a small fraction of all people reading this forum.
ah, ok, i see what you mean... hmmm... i hadn't thought much about that. thanks for the explanation.

but if one can't delete something, does your personal story becomes the property of the website, then, like facebook?

please note that im not for *nuking it all*, which seems to me more of an emotional reaction than a sensible one. but removing potentially endangering information from prying eyes is (or should be) a different case altogether. i guess the current situation is conflating them.

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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by rube »

Several journals were absolutely a great inspiration and motivation to me when I started with my own path.
Over the years they have become less important for me, because I had read and internalized lots of the information.
But for newcomers a lot of interesting information has gone, which I think is a big loss for this community/movement.
In any case, although for me I am no forum addict anymore (?) (yes I did read a lot more than I wrote) I hope the forum/community continues to exist in order provide inspiration and information for new members and for the existing forummites.

white belt
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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by white belt »

I’m a little disappointed to see members deleting their journals. On this ERE journey we encounter similar trials, tribulations, and thoughts even if our lives are different. I often find myself reading a journal and making a mental bookmark to go back to a post when I encounter a similar situation X to what the poster is going through. As an example, c_L provided a lot of good insight about the highs and lows of semi-ERE, which is different from the more traditional FIRE path we see with most journals here.

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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by theanimal »

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:10 pm
Did the people who left the forum after 2016-7 fear they would be cancelled for believing their own eyes?
You can still read all the posts of those who left the forum once Trump was elected.

mathiverse
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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by mathiverse »

The archives and old posts are a very useful, interesting, and valuable part of the forum.

I'm sad to see various journals and posters go. I've read at least four journals from people who were very active at one point, but now no longer post frequently or at all: black_son_of_gray (who is in and out, but mostly out these days), my_brain_gets_itchy (who hasn't posted in years), TopHatFox (who seems to be gone now), and wolf (who is in and out, but mostly out these days). cL's journal was also one I had read a large portion of the archives of and that I also followed along now that I'm a regular.

I've also gone through almost every old thread that has caught my eye in the Lifestyle, Politics, Health, and the Friends/Family sections by going through every page for interesting or previously active threads (eg threads with > 20 replies). I don't typically comment after I read them to revive them like Stahlmann. I do notice when various users have nuked their account when reading these threads JasonR, bigato, etc.

Some non-active users like Fish have created really awesome threads and posts too. (Oh! And I also read his journal.) His posts about ERE versus E-ER were key in developing my own understanding of ERE.

Finally, I nearly always do a Google search of the forum site for threads related to topics I'm interested in learning more about, so I rarely have reason to post a new thread. Recently, I found a bunch of resources for gardening and staying warm in the cold by doing that kind of search.

@cL I hope you decide not to delete your posts in other parts of the forum. The journal will be missed, but you've provided a lot of value and insight in other places too. The "Yields and Flows" thread comes to mind. Also I presume that most threads about semi-ERE and about climbing the Wheaton levels would be affected since you were commonly discussing those topics. I've read some of those threads multiple times as I try to figure out how I can be thinking better.

So I suppose my forum usage patterns may not be reflective of a large portion of users, but I know I get a lot of value from the archives. I read far more than I write by an order or magnitude (or 2)! Maybe once I am already ERE, then I'll feel more like the new threads are the main valuable parts of the forum since most of the rest will be old news and things I already do.

EDIT: But since I want to be able to delete my own stuff as I see fit, I think others should be able to as well. Hopefully the forum does well despite that.
Last edited by mathiverse on Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by jacob »

@Alphaville - If I spend an hour or two answering a question about e.g. climate change models or the different variations of socialism or conservatism from a European/American perspective, my answer is definitely not directed exclusively at the person asking---if it was, I'd just be sending a PM---but also directed at other people in the thread both active and inactive and perhaps even more to them than the original person asking the question. This means that answers depend on context. When someone deletes a post, it's not just that post that gets deleted but also the context of other people's replies.

This is why insofar scenario (5) is going to the way forward that I would see it as a waste of [my] time to write "contextual" answers to people's questions in order to develop "rich" threads for future reference, when the alternative [for me] would be to work on more self-contained articles. A coherent thread is certainly richer than a blog post with comments. A thoroughly revisioned article, like a well-researched essay written by a single author, might informationally parallel a blog post with comments to fill out some missing aspects. However, a thread with holes in it worse than any of those. I would just have little motivation towards contribution to anything w/o coherence similar to how I don't spend a whole lot of time on facebook or twitter.

white belt
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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by white belt »

I also understand that deleting posts is ultimately a personal decision, but I think we should all understand the potential damage of doing it.

We know that the vast majority of readers on this forum are lurkers, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t affected by ideas they see on the forums. If we assume that all of us would like a world with more ERE adherents, every post that could serve as inspiration or a challenge to the mainstream consumer narrative helps. ERE and these forums have changed all of our lives for the better and I agree with Jacob that ERE would be much more difficult if all there was to do was read the book/blog and post comments.

IlliniDave
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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by IlliniDave »

IlliniDave wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:18 am
...Brings to mind a refrain from an old song, "Times, they are a-changin'". I am already suspecting that my decision to just bleach my follow up "journal" inadequate. Sigh.
ETA, just to be clear to those concerned about ere, I don't intend to make any changes to this site except adding one reply to suo, then possibly adding posts some day after a self-imposed moratorium.
Last edited by IlliniDave on Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

IlliniDave
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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by IlliniDave »

suo, I see it differently, obviously. Invocation of "terrorism" gives the government (only a small fraction of which are the people that get elected) as much omnipotence as a government can have. It will be interesting to see how the announced "purge" of the military goes. Hope life treats you well in the days ahead. You've been through a lot lately, and I've walked a mile or two in those boots. The days ahead can hold a lot of promise.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

theanimal wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:20 pm
You can still read all the posts of those who left the forum once Trump was elected.
My point is that the people who left the forum after Trump was elected seemed more salty that they could not succeed in getting others cancelled than any fear of being cancelled themselves.

One of those prominent former posters emerged out of the woodwork in an attempt to get me cancelled personally here on the forums. It was funny. And revealing.

The text I quoted from iDave indicates we are now in a different environment.

I think you in particular are robust to being cancelled. It is less difficult at the periphery of the empire. But the trend is to deplatform anyone who opposes or even questions the oligarchic dictatorship. Makes it hard to have an honest conversation about anything, because most everything is connected. I am apolitical and have never even registered to vote. But I feel the heat just for being honest.

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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by jacob »

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:39 pm
My point is that the people who left the forum after Trump was elected seemed more salty that they could not succeed in getting others cancelled than any fear of being cancelled themselves.
That is not entirely accurate. Those who were most in fear (which went somewhat beyond cancelling) just faded away quietly which was somewhat smarter given the fact that almost nobody noticed.

CS
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Re: On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

Post by CS »

jacob wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:24 pm
@Alphaville - If I spend an hour or two answering a question
This seems like a good switch. You could write those independent answers/essays elsewhere and place a link in any thread. If the thread goes poof, oh well.

I do think it is sort of funny how people are worried now. 2016 was rough for me personally, but I just added what I learned to my list of 'consider the source', which in the long run has been effective.

This forum is much more public than even facebook.

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