The atmosphere of the forum...

Questions and comments
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Stahlmann
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Re: The atmosphere of the forum...

Post by Stahlmann »

...
Last edited by Stahlmann on Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

thegreatvoid

Re: The atmosphere of the forum...

Post by thegreatvoid »

Hey @Stahlmann is back

Scott 2
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Re: The atmosphere of the forum...

Post by Scott 2 »

Most board software offers native functionally for private sub forums. I would expect the configuration to persist through upgrades with no ongoing effort.

It's unrealistic to make a thousand posts someplace and expect to retain true anonymity. That's a massive footprint of identifying detail. I always post under the assumption content could tie back to me IRL.

Another benefit of making controversial topics private, is it adds a layer of identity protection for members. Obviously for those engaging in the discussion, but also for those tangentially associated via participation on the same website. I'd much rather a coworker who identifies me find discussions about Pyrex than gender politics.

jacob
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Re: The atmosphere of the forum...

Post by jacob »

It's a very good rule of thumb never to post anything on the internet (or electronically for that matter) that one would not want to appear on the front page of the NYT complete with identifying information. (See e.g. Jeff Bezos's affair).

Those who worry about repercussions based on what they're posting, probably shouldn't be posting it [publicly] in the first place. Especially not here since this is a public forum. I'm NOT going to make threads or parts of the forum private to make it possible to exercise less self-restraint/self-awareness wrt controversial topics. Participating in such topics can make those who do it look really good or really bad based on what is posted. Controversy is not bad per se ...but the controversy leverages the consequences of what is said. Saying something stupid in a controversial topic has bigger implications than ditto in a mundane topic. As we've seen already, there's no guarantee of anonymity on the internet. In short, those who require anonymity/don't want to stand behind what they're saying wrt controversial topics should NOT post on these forums. This is not the place for people to say things they're not willing to stand by IRL.

Basically, with freedom of speech follows personal [IRL] responsibility for one's speech/posts.

TL;DR - I'm not going to make sections private to give controversial topics or posters anonymous protection. There are other websites that satisfies those needs. I have ZERO interest in running a site like that.

jacob
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Re: The atmosphere of the forum...

Post by jacob »

While it is better for the individual (because anonymity equals zero-cost optionality), it is not better for the sum-total of the individuals that is the forum itself. IOW, TANSTAAFL because the cost (of individually free optionality) is then paid by the whole because a few people then get freer reigns to pollute the forum with gender wars or anti-vaxxer posts. If the risk of being googled will make those people think a little harder before hitting the submit button, I'm all for it.

(Just because it's invisible to google doesn't mean it no longer exists on the forum.)

FWIW I care little of what google does or does not do wrt discovery of ERE as a whole, since unlike most sites/blogs, I'm not that dependent on organic search traffic.

Scott 2
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Re: The atmosphere of the forum...

Post by Scott 2 »

Typically a private sub-forum requires someone to be a member, maybe even reach a minimum post count, to view content or post. Reducing the exposure discourages attention seeking behavior. I've been a part of several over the years. In my experience, without a public audience, people lose interest in the previously tantalizing topics.

daylen
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Re: The atmosphere of the forum...

Post by daylen »

That would lead to second order effects such as low quality posting elsewhere to get into these more privileged areas. This would just promote social stratification and instability. I think the population would need to be much larger or different in kind to be bi-stable.

jacob
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Re: The atmosphere of the forum...

Post by jacob »

For those who are interested in understanding how/why I moderate, I suggest watching this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW4LTqRJDW8
It is fundamentally deep and I don't think that this sketchup quite does justice to the full theory in Kegan's book, so consider this a starting point for trying to understand rather than a starting point for debate or asking me to clarify. It's crucial to realize that while maturity often correlates with age, maturity is not caused by age so the vid showing different ages can be misleading. Levels do build on each other ... building the next level typically appears in a step-wise way in which one can spend decades at one level before suddenly jumping to the next. Second, one might be more mature in some areas than others ... in particular, there's a strong risk of exhibiting some very immature behavior for topics that are emotionally meaningful to oneself.

I've noted before that in terms of the adult (age 18+) population, 14% are Kegan2, 58% are Kegan3, 35% are Kegan4, and 1% are Kegan5.

Within this framework, I think practically all moderation issues are caused by Kegan2 behavior, that is, when a person posts in a way that objectifies other people (e.g. women, muslims, reds, blues, immigrants, elites, religious people, ...). The calls for heavy content based moderation, I think, is mainly motivated based on a preference for Kegan3, that is, "traditionalism" in the sense that Kegan3 would prefer that we stick to certain pre-aproved topics such as e.g. investing, budgets, FIRE, house and car questions, ... and so on. Kegan3 requires the ability to stop seeing [certain] other people as objects---in other words "be nice" but requiress that this happens within carefully constructed guidelines.

However, I prefer to orient the forum towards Kegan4. This is what I mean when I point out how the forum mainly consists of FIREd people who discuss anything but FIRE. Kegan4 allows one to go beyond the restricted guidelines and objectively consider multiple angles of any problem. Kegan4 tends to be annoyed with Kegan2 behavior for that very reason. In Wheaton level terms, to Kegan4, Kegan2 are "the assholes that are destroying the world" and Kegan3 "should try a little harder". Kegan4 also represents "modernism".

What is Kegan5? In forum terms it's the recognition that there's not one objective truth (modernism) but that truth is found by subjective agreement on the objective frameworks. In practical terms, what I try to do when I attempt to "steer" conversations is to make the participants (the subjects) look at similarities instead of differences. For me this is an old physics lesson I was fortunate to pick up very early. It's supremely human (possibly based in Kegan2) to mostly look for differences and define everything according to that. It's also a lot easier. Kegan5 requires one to be able to hold more than one framework in the mind simultaneously at the subjective level in order to compute. This requires a lot of deliberate practice at Kegan4 trying to identify [subjectively] with each objective framework one considers before trying to synthesize. It is the subjective experience that delineates Kegan4 and Kegan5. This is essentially "post-modernism" but as a truly felt and lived philosophy---not just as an intellectual excuse for laziness ala "anything goes in terms of correctness".

Anyhoo ... even if this explanation does not make sense now, this is why I moderate the way I do. So 1) If you got dinged by the moderator stick, it's highly likely that some Kegan2 behavior was involved---likely because of a subject that carries special/personal emotionality(*). There is, as far as I know, no way I can walk Kegan2 through "why you did a bad thing" before you get to Kegan3; and 2) If you wonder why I don't want a giant Kegan3 party (this would after all appeal to the majority of people (58%) ), it's because I'm not interested in the problems that are solvable at this level. That's like teaching middle school. For me, ERE is an exercise in personal development. There's far more to this [life] than solving the financial problem. That shit should only take 5 years.

(*) For example, I might be afraid of dogs because I had a particularly bad experience being attacked by a dog. Therefore when it comes to dogs as an objective group, I would be afraid of all of them. I would likely rationalize why this is objectively the case at which point I'd be stuck in Kegan2 until I realize that the dog that attacked me does not represent all dogs (Kegan2.5) and maybe that I can have good relations which individual dogs (Kegan3). With such experience with a bunch of dogs, I realize that I dogs respond to how I behave (Kegan4) and perhaps that the original attack was due to me being tense as a Kegan2 ... and so on ... This sounds simple when put in those terms, but rest assured that humans do exactly that to each other all the time.

jacob
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Re: The atmosphere of the forum...

Post by jacob »

@Scott2 - I have considered a public sub-forum on that model. I would not use post-count due to the gameable reasons noted by daylen. It would probably be by invite only instead. This does of course risk other side-effects like the perception of an A-team and a B-team, the generation of bubbles, ...

Scott 2
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Re: The atmosphere of the forum...

Post by Scott 2 »

Understood. I don't have a better option for your goal. It is fundamentally different than what I'm seeking. I burn my energy for higher order thought on other things.

EdithKeeler
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Re: The atmosphere of the forum...

Post by EdithKeeler »

Huh. Reading this thread I get the feeling I must not be reading A LOT of posts. Totally missing all the issues mentioned. And I’m okay with that.

Discussion seems fine to me, and I don’t read the ones I’m not interested in. I try to stay away from politics, because I was getting pissed off a year or so ago. Seems to be working for me.

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Stahlmann
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Re: The atmosphere of the forum...

Post by Stahlmann »

sorry people if somebody got offended from my activity in the past (it seems it could be taken as inauthentic, but there're moments of real moral development insights even in stubborn guys).
time for break for me and do someting in reality.

horsewoman
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Re: The atmosphere of the forum...

Post by horsewoman »

@Stahlmann - I very much enjoyed a lot of the old posts you dug up these last few days. Especially this one is very timely with the whole covid topic.

This is probably not what you were referring to, but I was not yet around in the forums when this thread was started so I don't really know what happened then...

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