A wiki page for jacob/ERE

Questions and comments
Post Reply
User avatar
Fish
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:09 am

A wiki page for jacob/ERE

Post by Fish » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:46 pm

jacob wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:15 am
(where's my @#$@# wiki page? :? :x )
@jacob - Even the legendary Vicki Robin doesn't have a wiki page... one was attempted in 2016 but deleted as she was deemed not sufficiently notable.

I started writing a wiki page but got discouraged after seeing the Wikipedia articles for creation page and looking at what does and doesn't make the cut. The standards are much higher than a decade earlier. Not having enough time and energy to do it on my own, I am reaching out for help from the community.

Mainly, I am having trouble finding high-quality secondary sources which vouch for the (somewhat extraordinary) claims you make:
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/about-the-blog wrote:
[The ERE] blog mainly focused on the financial independence and retiring early (FIRE) aspects, blazing a trail by formalizing and bringing together many of the concepts that are now taken for granted as the “standard formula” by most of the FIRE community, specifically
  • That one’s savings rate is the sole determinant for how many years it takes to become financially independent. (Complete with formulas)
  • That for most people, it is relatively easier to decrease expenses than increase income.
  • That the smartest way to do this is to focus on the big expenses (typically house, car, and food) instead of clipping coupons or relying on long lists of penny-pinching frugality tips.
  • That early retirement is not just for millionaires or the 55+ crowd.
I don't really dispute your claims of originality and priority on these ideas but it won't hold up on wiki unless backed up by a reputable, independent source. Haven't seen it yet. A quality piece on the history of FIRE is needed!


@others - Does anyone want to collaborate on a wiki page?

Some things to consider:
1) Should the wiki page be about JLF or ERE?(*)
2) Do we go through the AfC process or add the new article directly?
3) What level of completion is needed before submitting the article?
4) Where to collaborate? Should we use the ERE wiki to work on drafts?

(*)Between the two, I think JLF would have an easier time passing the notability test whereas a page on ERE would tend to come off as "crackpot fringe theories of personal finance" to the general public and be held to a stricter standard. However, writing a biography of a living person also has its own challenges.

Anyone who would like to help:
  • There is a set of links and references in the ERE In the News and Around the Web page. Can someone get these into the standard wiki citation formats (cite news) (cite magazine) (cite web)? This will make it easier for those contributing to the writing.
  • Search for highly reputable publications which mention JLF/ERE, even if it is not the primary focus of the article. Those will be useful as credibility indicators. Maybe just reply back here with a URL, or even better URL + wiki citation format for ease of use.
  • Help writing and editing is of course needed.

Optimal_Solution
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 4:56 pm

Re: A wiki page for jacob/ERE

Post by Optimal_Solution » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:22 am

I think first you need to establish an argument for why Jacob or ERE should have a Wikipedia page.

User avatar
Hobbes
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:35 pm

Re: A wiki page for jacob/ERE

Post by Hobbes » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:11 am

I'd be happy to help with proof-reading and general editing

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 10509
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 73
Contact:

Re: A wiki page for jacob/ERE

Post by jacob » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:41 am

@Fish - It seems somewhat random which people in the FIRE, lifestyle design, and simple living space has a page. If VR doesn't have a page, then I should not have a page either(*) ... and neither should many others in the simple living/personal finance space. I suspect what gets included or not included is strongly depending on whether an existing wiki-editor (with clout) acquires some interest in some representative of a given subculture.

(*) It would appear that the GRS page is also gone. It used to exist.

The most complete page on the history of FIRE (largely financial in focus) I know of is this:
https://rockstarfinance.com/history-of- ... -movement/
This is probably not enough. I think at this point, you'd need a historian to disentangle how all this actually came about or rely on bloggers who have actually been around since the "beginning" (2005+), such as https://wallethacks.com/best-fire-finan ... ent-blogs/

Journalists would mainly be interested in current events and ten years ago, FIRE did not enjoy much mainstream interest.

The "ERE in the news" page is complete as far as I know it.

@OS - Possibly just personal/misinformed vanity--- driven by the fact that several other people in the personal finance/simple living space have one.

@all - It would probably make more sense to focus on and fix up the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_independence page insofar FIRE itself is too small in the grand scheme of things to warrant more than a brief entry. It's in a worse state than the entry for "Capsule Wardrobe". But maybe that's random too .. the Simple Living page is a lot bigger and more solid.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 10509
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 73
Contact:

Re: A wiki page for jacob/ERE

Post by jacob » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:41 am

Fish wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:46 pm
Mainly, I am having trouble finding high-quality secondary sources which vouch for the (somewhat extraordinary) claims you make:

I'm not claiming to independently have invented any of these things. Certainly not! All of them existed in one form or the other. What I am saying is that before the ERE blog, they had never been combined into this framewrok. After ERE, the FIRE community has universally adopted this framework as the de facto framework with one exception: The FIRE community has wisely de-emphasized the RE part of FIRE. This is something I struggled a lot with trying to redefine (as in, it's not about sitting on a @#$@$ beach towel) but never succeeded in. Thus rather the point is not that you can retire before you're 55 but that you can become FI before 55.

Unfortunately, I don't think any journalist or historian has independently written this [historic evolution] down anywhere :geek: :( . It should be easy to disprove(*) though insofar anyone can find any book or blog that discusses all these things together that predates ERE. The closest work you can argue for this is YMOYL (which apparently doesn't qualify for wiki :roll: ) but they were more interested in traditional frugality i.e. the 1980-1990s methods with e.g. Amy Dacyczyn, Dollar Stretcher, ... so bottom-up approach to savings rather than a top-down approach. Also YMOYL did not explicitly consider the savings rate but instead relied in a ingenious algorithm (the crossover plot). The problem with that was that it did not incorporate any SWR ideas (because they were developed in the mid 1990s and thus came later). Back then people would happily presume 10% ROIs and FIRE based on that.

(*) But that probably falls under "original research".

PS: See how I can't win ... :P :?

Jason
Posts: 1521
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:37 am

Re: A wiki page for jacob/ERE

Post by Jason » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:21 pm

Not only do I think JLF deserves his own wiki page, I believe his work boots do as well. I'd probably also give one to his rake. Christ, I'd give one to 7W5 with a list of her most indecipherable quotations. And Suo. He deserves one as well. And CS, only so I could pay someone to hack it and write inappropriate things on it. I don't deserve one. But I don't want one.

I mean MMM has one but JLF doesn't? That's like Sean Lennon having a page but not his father.

Edit: Apparently, winning a Nobel prize helps.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... f61b5583af

User avatar
Fish
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:09 am

Re: A wiki page for jacob/ERE

Post by Fish » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:23 am

jacob wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:41 am
@all - It would probably make more sense to focus on and fix up the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_independence page insofar FIRE itself is too small in the grand scheme of things to warrant more than a brief entry.
Agreed. That page is in bad shape. But today’s edit moves it in the right direction. Others can start fixing up the other sections now that there’s a better foundation for the FI page. I had trouble finding an authoritative definition of FI that incorporated a mathematical formula of some sort. For the uninitiated, it might be easiest to present FI as having savings >= expected lifetime, or a perpetuity. I suppose that 4% rule would also work given its popularity.

Also, my mistake for implying that you invented FIRE. Thanks for correcting my error.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 10509
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 73
Contact:

Re: A wiki page for jacob/ERE

Post by jacob » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:30 pm

Cool!

I noticed that the "FIRE movement" has its own page too now. Apparently not considered generally notable without reliable secondary sources. Depending on what qualifies, here's one: https://www.forbes.com/sites/financialf ... ur-wealth/ from 2011.

Post Reply