in which brute says things about libertarianism

Should you squeeze the toothpaste tube in the middle or from the end?
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Riggerjack
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:26 pm

Ok. So let's go smaller.

What's the fix for graffiti? Or littering?

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BRUTE
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by BRUTE » Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:04 pm

wrong again. the answer will not be pre-determined.

Campitor
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Campitor » Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:52 pm

The mistake most people make, when discussing government or market/capitalist solutions, is believing everything can be fixed or is worth the expense of fixing. Some problems lack extrinsic motivations towards a solution because of the cost isn't worth the expense of addressing the transgression or because the problem is externalized.

There are problems that can only be fixed by culture/intrinsic motivation. Learning not to litter is a cultural thing. I've seen people intentionally throw garbage on the floor while standing less than 3 feet from an empty garbage can. Unless we start handing out troy ounces of gold in exchange for litter, or caning people for littering, this is a problem that no government or economic system will fix. It's about culture. Same problem with CO2 emissions - this will not get fixed until there is a cultural shift or clean alternative energy sources become cheap and widespread. I hope scientist will crack the self sustaining nuclear fusion problem within my lifetime.

Jean
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Jean » Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:38 am

But why should pollution, littering or graffity be treated differently than any othet property dammages?

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:40 am

Campitor wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:52 pm
There are problems that can only be fixed by culture/intrinsic motivation.
How to uncorrupt a corrupted people

George the original one
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by George the original one » Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:02 am

Jean wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:38 am
But why should pollution, littering or graffity be treated differently than any othet property dammages?
Pollution creates situations that are unfixable or only fixable at vast public expense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picher,_Oklahoma
Flint, Michigan water

There are also the criminal releases of killer toxins when safety regulations are not followed. Remember Bhopal, India?

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by prognastat » Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:25 am

BRUTE wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:16 pm
assumptions, assumptions. brute does not agree on the "requirement of police force" assumption. plenty of systems work and have worked that do not use the monopoly on violence to enforce law.
How would you pose it be handled if I refuse a courts orders in a society where there in no government to enforce said orders? Would you recommend that everyone is allowed to use violence instead(mob justice)? Or are you assuming that humans can get to the point where social/cultural enforcement is so strong that no one would want to deny the court ruling(an extension of your ostracism option)?

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BRUTE
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by BRUTE » Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:33 am

George the original one wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:02 am
Remember Bhopal, India?
yea, too bad that there was no government in India at the time to prevent that disaster. that's what they get for being libertarian ideologues!

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BRUTE
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by BRUTE » Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:40 am

prognastat wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:25 am
How would you pose it be handled if I refuse a courts orders in a society where there in no government to enforce said orders? Would you recommend that everyone is allowed to use violence instead(mob justice)? Or are you assuming that humans can get to the point where social/cultural enforcement is so strong that no one would want to deny the court ruling(an extension of your ostracism option)?
libertarianism is not brute's personal dictatorship. brute does not know how exactly problem X would be handled. brute has suggested various ways in which X could be handled, many of which have been used and are being used.

brute definitely thinks that "going there slowly" is a good idea. opening markets too quickly rarely seems to lead to good results, at least in some prominent examples like Russia. there is certainly a cultural shift that comes with it. humans have to learn to act in markets.

so brute does not advocate anarcho-capitalism tomorrow. but a slow move there would be great, and brute's argument is merely that there exist non-state solutions for pretty much all the problems he's ever heard. that doesn't mean the police should stay home tomorrow because it's all going to be fine.

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Campitor » Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:08 pm

@ Jean

There is no political will to vigorously enforce littering. Think about the neighborhoods that have the worst litter. What do their tax base look like? What are the police to square mile ratio? And what other crimes are being committed that overburden their law enforcement and court systems? What racist or class discrimination accusations will be made when $100 littering fines are handed out?

Pollution is a problem because companies are immune to the externalized cost. There should be emission monitors installed at pollution sources that keeps a running tab on what you emit so offenders are charged accordingly. If I was the emperor, I would decree that all pollution fines be paid by the board of directors, CEO, CTO, and CFO first before any company asset. :twisted:


@ Mister Imperceptable

How do you un-corrupt people? Via early education that littering is for the ignorant and it destroys the planet. Worked for a bunch of us. I will actually put trash in my pocket or hold it in my hand until I can find a garbage can. I own a car but seldom drive it - I walk, cycle, or take public transportation. I recycle. I avoid plastics and try to buy items stored in metal or glass. Whatever plastic I do use, I will crush and recycle. It's not hard to be "greener" but you have to be educated and raised into it.

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by George the original one » Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:55 pm

Campitor wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:08 pm
There should be emission monitors installed at pollution sources that keeps a running tab on what you emit so offenders are charged accordingly.
Portland had incidents in 2015-2016 with two art glass blowing companies for cadmium, arsenic, and lead emissions. The emissions had been known about since 2004 (Oregon DEQ), but the sources had not been pinpointed until 2015. One company (Uroboros) subsequently closed and moved to Mexico to avoid regulations after voluntarily stopping use of cadmium. The other company (Bullseye) resumed using cadmium after installing an updated filtration system known as a baghouse, but now faces a $1.2 billion class action lawsuit.

George the original one
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by George the original one » Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:56 pm

BRUTE wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:33 am
George the original one wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:02 am
Remember Bhopal, India?
yea, too bad that there was no government in India at the time to prevent that disaster. that's what they get for being libertarian ideologues!
Well, as we know with most polluters and government regulators, a lack of enforcement does diddly-squat. We also know that a lack of caring and education does diddly-squat, too (upper reaches of Willamette River have mercury poisoning because gold miners in the Bohemia district during the mid-1800s didn't understand about mercury poisoning and there was no one to stop them from using mercury to amalgamate gold).

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BRUTE
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by BRUTE » Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:58 am

so both Portland and Bhopal seem like good examples that government doesn't necessarily prevent pollution, even if there are laws against it?

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Jean » Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:48 am

You don't charge people for desttoying property. You stop them.

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Campitor » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:43 am

Jean wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:48 am
You don't charge people for desttoying property. You stop them.
How would "stop them" look like? At what cost? Littering and graffiti are pervasive in poorer neighborhoods. Stopping littering and graffiti would require a pervasive level of enforcement that would be very expensive. The political will to spend that kind of money to "stop" the poor inhabitants from littering just isn't there. Racism and classism accusations are already being lobbed against police and politicians who get tough on crime. The rhetoric will only increase if you start jailing, fining, or arresting the poor for littering or graffiti. I hate littering and graffiti and I would be happy if there was vigorous littering prevention. But resources are finite (time, money, people) and there are other societal issues such as CO2 emissions and sustainable energy (fusion/solar) that I'd rather spend money on.

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Jean » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:45 am

I was talking about pollution. Those streets ain't mine, so the street owner can do whatever he wants. If someone is emiting pollution, you don't charge him for that. You could maybe sell him a right to pollute your air, but obviously the pollution wouldn't be confined there, so that would be pointless. So if someone is pollutong, you get legitimacy to stop him by force, like you would have if someone is vandalizing your property or trying to rape you.

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Campitor » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:34 am

Jean wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:45 am
I was talking about pollution. Those streets ain't mine, so the street owner can do whatever he wants. If someone is emiting pollution, you don't charge him for that. You could maybe sell him a right to pollute your air, but obviously the pollution wouldn't be confined there, so that would be pointless. So if someone is pollutong, you get legitimacy to stop him by force, like you would have if someone is vandalizing your property or trying to rape you.
I understand what your saying. I wish I could snap my fingers (Thanos style) and stop every egregious polluter on the planet. But sadly if I had that power, we would all be dead. All of us, to varying degrees, are polluters or support industries that pollute. Computers contain heavy metals yet here we are debating pollution on a forum made accessible by a vast electronic infrastructure that places a large load on the energy grid. Even if we recycle our computers (I do), the mining of these heavy metals is toxic to the environment and destructive to natural habitats.

If we take a plane, train, or automobile, we are still emitting greenhouse gases despite any current efficiencies. Everything from our clothes to our food (even vegan) disrupts or destroys natural habitats. We have to find a more reasonable means, beyond corporal punishment, to solving this pollution issue. And which lawmaker is going to vote against his or her own interest? https://ivn.us/2012/04/18/the-number-on ... overnment/

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Jean » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:56 am

If was just pointing the consequent libertarian solution to pollution. We can't go past neolythic following libertarian ideals, and i think we shouldn't go past that. Then the question is how to you keep other people to go past neolythic, without going past it yourself. I don't know and i just hope for an a.i. to get us back there, and keep us there.

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Campitor » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:14 pm

Every complex organism "pollutes". This non-human pollution is mitigated by two aspects: the by-products of their activity is biodegradable and their population is controlled by a competing/predatory species. Humans are the ultimate apex predator on the planet and there is nothing currently to keep our population in check.

So to solve the pollution issue several things have to occur. Our population numbers need to dwindle, our technology must be 100% biodegradable or 100% recyclable, and we need to develop terraforming technology that can sequester the CO2 in our atmosphere; although growing bamboo and just burying it may help - Estimation of biomass and carbon storage of moso bamboo.

For the reasons I listed in previous posts, punishment doesn't seem to be the answer to obtaining environmental equilibrium. Technology coupled with responsible free market initiatives seems the way to go. I don't believe this to be contrary to most libertarians. ;)

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BRUTE
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by BRUTE » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:04 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:26 pm
What's the fix for graffiti? Or littering?
brute was thinking about Riggerjack's question again recently.

does Riggerjack know the old joke about two ladies waiting in the bread line in Soviet Russia?

says one lady to the other: the bread line is so long.
says the other lady: don't you know, in America, the government doesn't even hand out bread!

this is roughly how brute feels about questions of this nature.

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