in which brute says things about libertarianism

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7Wannabe5
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:22 am

It is pretty much true that garden-essayists are the best humans.

Jean
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Jean » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:57 am

What should change in the world so that power-hungryness doesn't get rewarded with power?

Riggerjack
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Riggerjack » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:34 am

There's nothing wrong with people getting what they want. The power hungry should be able to attain power.

It's up to the rest of us to limit how much we will submit. For me, this is the strength of libertarian ideas. How to live free and happy in a world full of people who would choose to interfere with that, for my own good, of course. :roll:

7Wannabe5
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:20 am

@Riggerjack:

Right. That's why I said that I am more libertarian than you or BRUTE. I attempted to liberate myself from compulsory education AND restrictive regulations regarding underage sexual behavior way back in 1980. I also attempted to liberate myself from restrictive zoning codes regarding off-grid urban campers just last year. Also, I am pretty damn good at tax avoidance.

One thing I don't quite grok about this forum is why people think they need to earn their freedom.

Jean
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Jean » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:13 pm

We could reframe libertarianisme from a passive "don't agress" to an active "don'tolerate aggression"

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:59 pm

@Jean

That sounds like a microaggression to me.

Jean
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Jean » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:18 pm

What property of yours have i dammaged?

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:24 pm

I don’t believe in owning property. Property is theft. All woke wypipo know that any land they own in America was stolen from the Native Americans. Even the clothes I wear are on loan from the Salvation Army. I intend to return them. Eventually.

I agree with what you say about aggression. Similarly, it is not enough to not be racist. We have to be actively non-racist and intolerant of intolerance. My 76-year-old grandmother said some unflattering things about her minority neighbors who were receiving government subsidies, so I kicked her down the stairs. Sometimes you just have to #PunchANazi.

Riggerjack
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Riggerjack » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:33 pm

We could reframe libertarianisme from a passive "don't agress" to an active "don'tolerate aggression"
Yeah, we could. But then we would go from Libertarians, to SJWs. And as we showed in the infamous Nazi thread, we would just be well armed set of Brownshirts. I don't see the appeal.

No attempt to control the behavior of others ever works well.

The passive nature of libertarians is a strength. Be strong enough to allow others to do what they will. Be strong enough to stop them from doing it to you. Be strong enough to set an example for others. Be strong enough, and have enough respect, to allow others to make mistakes. Because we all do.

I have found that focusing on me and my bullshit is far more effective than fretting about what anyone else is doing.

Jean
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Jean » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:18 pm

@riggerjack. That's exactly what i mean. Instead of expecting the other not to steal from you, making it impossible for the others to steal from you. That's a form of control of the behavior of others.
@mister imperceptible
Sjw went so far that they are now indistinguishable from any caricature we could make of them. If it was anywhere else, i would assume you kicked your grandma.

I spent the whole sunday explaining people why considering anything non physical an aggression was the first step toward dictature

BRUTE
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by BRUTE » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:53 pm

Jean wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:57 am
What should change in the world so that power-hungryness doesn't get rewarded with power?
less concentrated systems of power: only a tiny bit of power can be gained by any given party. this is why 3 branches of government are better than 1. 10,000 are even better.

BRUTE
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by BRUTE » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:54 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:20 am
One thing I don't quite grok about this forum is why people think they need to earn their freedom.
whoever will be free must make himself free.

7Wannabe5
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:54 am

Yes, but Stirner also wrote:


"Whether nature gives me a right, or whether God, the people's choice, etc., does so, all of that is the same foreign right, a right that I do not give or take to myself. Thus the Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. [...] No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right; if, on the contrary, you only pine for it without laying hands on it, it remains as before, a, ‘well-earned right’ of those who are privileged for enjoyment. It is their right, as by laying hands on it would become your right."

Of course, I am mostly trying to figure out how I might best make use of this quote as justification of choice to quit my summer job at the garden center, renegotiate or end contract with my absentee BF, and then accept the Yacht Guy's invitation to go sailing with him. Unfortunately, I am somewhat worried that I may no longer be adequately "privileged for enjoyment" due to having put on 20+ lbs. since the last time I saw Y.G.

Maybe what I should have claimed was that I am clearly more Libertine than you or Riggerjack (sigh.) A marshmallow in the hand is worth 1.03 in the bush...etc. etc. etc.

Riggerjack
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Riggerjack » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:17 am

@7w5,
I think you value personal freedom more than I.

To me, personal freedom IS personal responsibility. My claim to the effects of my actions, frees me to make whichever choice will get me results closest to what I would want, without consulting a committee of others.

This, I think, ties into my primary drive, to be right. I can't choose what I believe to be the best option, if I have to break it down and explain, teach, irritate, and anger those around me, to help them understand why my way is better. It's just so much simpler to just do it, and watch for unintended consequences. When it works better, I share. When it doesn't, I take note of why, how I would do it differently, then share.

But the "but, that's not what I think" objections, are based on respect of what the speaker thinks. I just don't have this in too many cases. I'm working on that. :oops:

Perhaps if I were better socially, I could get more buy in, early. But I really don't think so. At this point I feel like unpacking an idea and displaying it to an unprepared audience would be a bit traumatic for both me and the audience... :roll:

7Wannabe5
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:26 am

@Riggerjack:

Within my simple psych model, "responsibility" is a quality maximized at the juncture between high functioning in adult feminine and high functioning in adult masculine energy. Naturally, your personal take on "responsibility" will be more reflective of adult masculine functioning, and my personal take on "responsibility" will be more reflective of adult feminine functioning. Therefore, although we both seek balance between personal freedom and personal responsibility, my social concerns will have more to do with love, and less to do with authority/mastery/dominance.

Since I am very much sold on the notion that all human language and thought is ultimately "embodied" (related to actual physical being), "personal freedom" can be literally understood or experienced as freedom to move your own body in accordance with your own will. If I draw on a naturalistic example, you (and others on this forum) are more like an adult male bear who naturally equates his ability to move freely and experience enjoyment such as acres of delicious berries and access to female bear(s) in heat with his ability to maintain dominance over his territory. For me, responsibility relates less to dominance over territory and more to care for young (or vulnerable others.)

Of course, these functions are rarely not overlapping. A general cares about the well-being of his soldiers, and a mother must exert authority over her toddler when he runs towards traffic. On one occasion when my children were very young, I walked to a dentist appointment by myself, and I had become so accustomed to carrying one on my back while pushing the other in a stroller, it was like I was floating like a balloon. So, for me, personal freedom is only found or achieved after all the "babies" found within my territory are well-fed and tucked into bed. I know that I tend towards being soft or bloated in my adult feminine functioning, so I have to constantly remind myself who/what is a "baby" and where my realm of responsibility ends. That's why I prefer to only play with the "big boys", even if I then err on the side of having to deal with a certain amount of azzholery. Easier to not feel guilty about wanting to break contract (recoup personal freedom)with somebody who says things like "I take care of all my b*tches."

Riggerjack
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Riggerjack » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:37 pm

That's why I prefer to only play with the "big boys", even if I then err on the side of having to deal with a certain amount of azzholery. Easier to not feel guilty about wanting to break contract (recoup personal freedom)with somebody who says things like "I take care of all my b*tches."
I find when I expand the timeline I am considering, my preference changes. Choosing veggies or ice cream is a simple choice. But if I consider how this will feel in the next hour, I choose one way. If I consider how this will feel later this week, it gets harder, as I try to justify what I want now. If I consider what will make me feel best, overall, as part of a system of choices I will make over my lifetime, the choice is easy again, but different from the short term choice.

I think one of the primary differences between myself and most others, is how easy the long term thinking is for me. And how good I am at avoiding it, while telling myself the story of how I am making long term decisions. :roll:

Is the above the best solution for you, long term? If so, awesome! Rock it while you can! Or is it the justification you use to make your short term choice acceptable to your own mind? I only ask because you have thought this decision through, and talk about it quite a bit. A pattern I find interferes with my own thinking on a subject.

Once I have decided on a course of action, I rarely revisit it, unless something goes wrong, and even then, I often don't question the assumptions that were used to initially make the decision. And currently, I am getting a lot of mileage from questioning my assumptions.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that your statements about relationships are all true, short term. But have you looked at your goals, long term, beyond retiring from the field and being in your garden with grandkids, I mean. Are your choices in line with your long term goals, as you define them?

No need to answer, but I thought I should try to work out how to ask that without miscommunication. I am not sure I got it right. :oops:

Campitor
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Campitor » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:41 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:28 pm
@ campitor,

You seem to have an internal model that identifies strongly with national identity, and make many assumptions from that. National identity (individual citizens strongly feeling a sense of belonging to the country) is relatively new....Which is not to counter any of your arguments, just an area of your model that seems somewhat to be on a shaky ground, from what I have read.
There are certain aspects of national identity that resonate with me; it's about the ideals that a country is founded on. I don't identify with the USA as a nation but with the principles expressed within the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. I freely acknowledge that the USA is a flawed nation but I expect it to be. Countries are governed by imperfect humans which makes for imperfect governance. Ergo a small government footprint is a good defense against despotism. I favor governments or policies, American or otherwise, that want to fail in the pursuit of freedom that is restrained by enlightened self interest. Many aspects of Libertarianism fall within this category imho.

And national identity may be new but group dynamics are not. Humans, in aggregate, will respond cohesively to attacks or uninvited territorial ingress. It matters not if the transgressed group is a nation, city state, tribe, or a cultural/religious group. Group psychology tends to ostracize anyone arguing for capitulation during active enemy aggression if their is a good chance of repelling the invader. So any argument about capitulation can only be seriously entertained in hindsight at the outset of an active invasion. Surrender is only possible when the group feels other avenues are not possible.

Any Soviet "comrade" arguing for capitulation during the Nazi invasion would have been killed. So I stand by my comment that these types of arguments are useless during the onset; humans need to evolve considerably before they behave rationally as a group during a preliminary attack. And I surmise that if we do evolve to this level of logical sophistication, we will no longer have any wars. Currently capitalism and the free trade is doing a good job of it while we await further evolutionary and cultural progress.

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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by jacob » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:45 pm

The average "time horizon of concern" for planning when it comes to INTJs averages 33 years. This implies a very low discount rate. Unfortunately, I don't have numbers for other types. This is probably because temperamental types whose time horizon of concern is more on the order of 3 hours or less have no interest in such surveys.

Jean
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Jean » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:52 pm

For what it's worth, i'm an intp, i don't have kid, but i plan for my grand children career.

Riggerjack
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Re: in which brute says things about libertarianism

Post by Riggerjack » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:55 pm

That's exactly what i mean. Instead of expecting the other not to steal from you, making it impossible for the others to steal from you. That's a form of control of the behavior of others.
I don't know anyone who can't be stolen from. I don't even think it's a goal worth trying for.

My goal would be to be harder to steal from than it is worth, to others. Every action in that chain is mine. Should someone prove me wrong, I can revisit the issue, and change as necessary. Again all actions in the chain are mine.

When I lose focus, and try to stop other people from stealing, as a means to avoid being stolen from, I waste my time and energy, and still am a possible target. Nothing is better, and I have wasted the part of my life I used up trying to change the behavior of other people.

You are young. The reality of how little you will accomplish in life hasn't really sunk in, yet. I hope you learn to focus on the things you can improve, and how, quicker than I did. ;)

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