So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

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IlliniDave
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by IlliniDave »

Edith, I think the "institutions" you mention are doing the irreparable harm to themselves. Shining a brighter light on them than they can deflect should be a priority for the country. Unfortunately, a large swath of the country is more interested in joining them in toppling an elected president than ensuring a benevolent government for themselves and the future. I didn't vote for Trump, but the apparent shadowy machinations in DC are what I find truly abhorrent.

EdithKeeler
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by EdithKeeler »

Edith, I think the "institutions" you mention are doing the irreparable harm to themselves. Shining a brighter light on them than they can deflect should be a priority for the country.
I don’t disagree. My point is that there’s a big difference between saying “the FBI is corrupt” and “there are some bad actors in the FBI.” The former calls into question everything that the organization does, the latter does not.

Words matter.

The FBI is way, way more than the stuff we are seeing right now on the news. A forensic accountant friend of mine who is with the FBI just a couple weeks ago in a deposition in a drug case had Trump’s “the FBI is in tatters” thrown in his face. If the “FBI is in tatters,” then that agent’s investigation is no good, is the implication, because the president said so.

Our own president, maligning essentially all of the work done by our highest law enforcement branch, is a big problem for me. Juries read those tweets. Defense attorneys use those tweets.

EdithKeeler
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by EdithKeeler »

I guess what bothers me the most is that I believe there is no merit to the Russian angle, basically it was a cover story for the worst candidate in history, and a special prosecutor has complete and unfettered access to travel in any direction he sees fit for as long as he sees fit. And to look as far back as he sees fit. He's had over a year to determine whether the original reasoning, as flawed as it was, had any merit to open this investigation. It's time to either present some evidence or shut it down.
Well, we disagree on some of this, and I’ll leave it at that.

But the broad powers thing started with Ken Starr, the suicide of Vince Foster and how it related to Whitewater, the investigation went on for three years, I think, and ended up with a semen stain on a blue dress. Seems like history repeating itself in a lot of ways, to me.

TimeTravel
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by TimeTravel »

I think there a lot of parallels. Clinton and Ken Starr, as you mentioned, began with suicide of Vince Foster and Whitewater, then Paula Jones, then Monica and then to obstruction of justice.

Trump and Mueller began with possible collusion, then to porn star and hush money. If Trump was smart, he should avoid meeting with Mueller at all cost. All it takes is two words to get Trump in trouble. Hand on Bible and asked if the agrees to tell the truth, He's say "I do" and everyone knows he won't as all he's shown is to lie and lie some more.

I'm leaning now to thinking Trump will fire Mueller and start throwing bombs at Syria to try and change the narrative. Just my hunch.

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jennypenny
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by jennypenny »

As EK alluded to, this is all political theater a la Ken Starr.

My best guess as to what's going on based on my sources ...
First, most reporters have concluded there was no collusion. Many still talk about Russian meddling and connections to Trump yet avoid referencing the collusion part because we've seen no evidence of it. Mueller could be keeping it under wraps but most journos I've talked to agree that if there was any evidence of it at all, it would have come out by now.

Think about it -- we're talking about someone colluding with another country to get himself elected despite being a significant underdog. That would be a national crisis and one that needed to be dealt with swiftly. If there'd been any real evidence of that, they would have moved quickly to get him out of office before he could start making policy, even if they had to try him in the court of public opinion. If by some chance Mueller's team didn't uncover evidence until recently, it would still have been leaked by now. We're about to get into a proxy war in Syria with the same country -- someone like John McCain would take that bullet, break protocol and maybe a few laws, and reveal everything about Trump.

I'm sure there's evidence of Russian meddling and that needs to be dealt with, but that's different and not something that Trump can be held accountable for.

I'm sure Mueller's only goal right now is to follow enough leads and make enough noise to justify continuing the investigation through the midterm elections. Mueller rattles his sabre just often enough to make the investigation look 'active', as detailed in this Vox article. Nothing related to collusion though, as noted in the article "None of the charges against Americans or Trump advisers so far have directly alleged that they worked with Russia to interfere with the campaign." I expect the sabre rattling to intensify as we near election day. That's why Mueller will pull on any thread like the Daniels one.

That's also why Trump's lawyers keep quitting. They know the most likely charge against Trump will be obstruction or perjury and repeatedly advised Trump watch his words more carefully. He doesn't seem able to do that, even to keep himself from being indicted, hence the revolving door of advisors. I can't see him firing Mueller since it's obvious Mueller doesn't have the goods on him, but Trump has trouble controlling his impulses wrt personal. OTOH, Sessions is still there ...

Another interesting quote from the article "Other reported focuses of Mueller’s investigation — such as the hacking and leaking of prominent Democrats’ emails and potential obstruction of justice by the Trump administration — have not resulted in any indictments yet." It wouldn't surprise me if indictments related to the DNC hacking don't come out until after the election to avoid bad press for Democrats. Their goal is to turn the House and make a run at the Senate. If Dems can do that, than they can attempt to impeach Trump with lesser charges than would be required with a Republican majority. Even if Trump avoids impeachment, or like [Bill] Clinton is impeached but not removed, it would give Democrats a lot of talking points going into the 2020 Presidential election.

Don't take this as criticism of the Democrats. It's SOP. Republicans assumed Clinton would win and planned to go after her vociferously. Chaffetz has a team in place and was ready to go after HRC and the Clinton foundation as soon as everyone was sworn in. Mueller's actions may be benefiting Democrats, but it's more that he's supporting insiders against what a majority of people in DC consider a rogue president.

@TT--You have to look at it like Trump. He thinks he's right. He doesn't see a need to change the narrative.

Jason

Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by Jason »

Anyone with a cursory understanding of the history of the FBI knows that it was never without bias and capable of using its power for political and/or personal reasons. Despite Hoover's personal acrimony towards the Kennedy's, Hollywood, the Civil Rights movement, the anti-war movement, a sitting President nor high ranking elected official ever publicly questioned the bureaus's basic legitimacy. Even the Kennedys who were Hoover's mortal enemies understood it could compromise national security, was too reflective of non-democratic governments, as well as a being a "don't throw stones in glass houses" reality.

IlliniDave
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by IlliniDave »

Edith, we'll have to agree to disagree. I still think it is what the FBI did (it's leaders are still part of it) that discredited them, not what DT did or didn't tweet. If lower level FBI employees have had their life made more difficult because of what their bosses tried to do, maybe when they ascend to leadership in time they will remember and behave more faithfully so their own subordinates do not go through the same.

IlliniDave
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by IlliniDave »

Jason wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:04 am
Even the Kennedys who were Hoover's mortal enemies understood it could compromise national security, was too reflective of non-democratic governments, as well as a being a "don't throw stones in glass houses" reality.
Hoover did not try to discredit and oust Kennedy from the presidency, which would have been a much graver blow to national security.

Jason

Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by Jason »

If you think for one minute Hoover wasn't trying his best on that account, you are sadly mistaken. The guy had more files on people than fucking Facebook. The only difference is that at that time in the country history, people didn't care who these guys were banging. They just needed more. As much as Trump hates the Clintons, he should know what happens when the stuff comes up. The hypocrisy is a moot point. It's how the game is now played. The guy dragged out three women who accused Clinton of sexual abuse. He wanted a sword fight and now he's got one. What's different about this? Really. I don't get it. I'm not saying I agree with it, but its the lay of the land. Pardon the pun.

But that's not the point. If you think the FBI can autonomously discredit and oust a President you have no understanding of the the democratic process with regard to rules of impeachment. He is investigating. That's their job. And it's essential to the country that it be permitted. Even if you think it's an unfair investigation, it still has to uncover evidence worthy of impeachment.

EdithKeeler
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by EdithKeeler »

Edith, we'll have to agree to disagree. I still think it is what the FBI did (it's leaders are still part of it) that discredited them, not what DT did or didn't tweet. If lower level FBI employees have had their life made more difficult because of what their bosses tried to do, maybe when they ascend to leadership in time they will remember and behave more faithfully so their own subordinates do not go through the same.
Yeah, I guess we will have to disagree.

What, exactly, did its leaders really do that you’re concerned about? Your take, not the Steve Bannon talking points. Yes, I do think the 2 agents trading the anti-Trump emails back and forth were wrong and made the agency look really bad. Yes, I do think Comey mishandled some of the timing of the announcements re. the email investigation on Hillary. I think much of the rest of it has been a smokescreen ginned up to create questions and controversy to discredit the FBI. (Disclaimer: I went to college with James Comey, though I didn’t know him).

The issue is not rank and file agents’ lives being “made more difficult.” The issue is that if the organization tasked with catching the bad guys is discredited, then more bad guys get away. It’s really that simple. If Trump says—and he has—that the FBI is in disarray, poorly managed, etc., criminals and their attorneys can seize on that in defending their criminal clients. And I’m not talking about political people, I’m talking about drug dealers, terrorists, murderers, kidnappers, white collar criminals. Like I said: juries read tweets and the news about tweets. Every time Trump publically questions law enforcement, it gives the defense something to point at to create reasonable doubt. “Hmmm... the FBI is pretty messed up... maybe they did mishandle that evidence. Maybe it was contaminated. After all, Trump said several times the FBI was in tatters, and this attorney is saying it too. Maybe I can’t vote to convict this guy.” I do a lot of stuff with mock juries— on the civil side, not criminal— but it’s scarily amazing how much stuff juries bring in to their decision making that has nothing to do with the actual evidence that’s been presented. It’s going to take years for the FBI to recover from this, to the detriment, in my opinion, of all of us.

ETA: I guess I just feel really passionately about the president of the United States knocking our justice system. That’s what it comes down to for me WRT the idea of firing Mueller and casting doubt on the FBI and our judges, etc. Our system is not perfect, and we do have some issues that need to be addressed. But his aspersions on the FBI , judges, etc. cast unwarranted doubt on a system that every American should take great pride in, a system that citizens of many other countries would love to have. I have no problem with people expressing how they feel.... but Trump’s words matter way more than a rank and file citizen’s bitching.
Last edited by EdithKeeler on Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

BRUTE
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by BRUTE »

Jason wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:09 pm
He wanted a sword fight and now he's got one. [..] Even if you think it's an unfair investigation, it still has to uncover evidence worthy of impeachment.
these two quotes cover brute's opinion on this pretty well. the investigation should be left unhindered. but if nothing actually illegal is uncovered, that's that.

so far, Muller seems to mainly have found out that Trump is a douchebag, cheated on his wives, and surrounds himself with humans of similar character.

brute is convinced that Trump + team would've taken any chance to cheat or collude with anyone, including Russians. but until something of that nature is actually proven, there's no impeaching. can't impeach a president for being a cheating douchebag unless he broke the law.

Jason

Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by Jason »

EdithKeeler wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:50 pm

ETA: I guess I just feel really passionately about the president of the United States knocking our justice system. That’s what it comes down to for me WRT the idea of firing Mueller and casting doubt on the FBI and our judges, etc. Our system is not perfect, and we do have some issues that need to be addressed. But his aspersions on the FBI , judges, etc. cast unwarranted doubt on a system that every American should take great pride in, a system that citizens of many other countries would love to have. I have no problem with people expressing how they feel.... but Trump’s words matter way more than a rank and file citizen’s bitching.
Suspicions of the the judiciary date back to the founding. There was concern that men wearing robes in a austere building would be reminiscent of a priestly class operating in a church. But the suspicions were based on acquisition of power, not commitment to basic constitutional principals. The whole system is based on suspicion. But this is the first time since the Civil War that the basic legitimacy of government branches is under attack by member(s) of other branches. And there is really nothing dirtier or different going on now than has in the past.

TimeTravel
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by TimeTravel »

Some thing that pulling the security clearance of John Brennan is just an roundabout way of trying to sabatoge to Mueller investigation. Of course, others think this is just a diversion away from Omarosa :lol: .

TimeTravel
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Re: So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

Post by TimeTravel »

Looks like Manafort is agreeing to sing for Mueller. I guess those cramped prison cells have a way of changing a person's mind. ;)
Paul Manafort, formerly President Donald Trump's campaign chairman, pleaded guilty Friday in Washington, D.C., to two new counts, admitted his guilt in 10 counts outstanding from his earlier trial in Virginia and agreed to cooperate with federal prosecutors.

Under the plea deal with special counsel Robert Mueller's team, Manafort agreed to forfeit multiple bank accounts and properties — including his apartment in Trump Tower — and to cooperate with investigators, including participating in interviews, providing documents and testifying in court.

The cooperation agreement filed with the court Friday says that Manafort must cooperate fully with the government in "any and all matters as to what the Government deems the cooperation relevant."


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... smsnnews11

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