So What Happens if Trump Decides to Fire Mueller?

[Jason]

Anyone with a cursory understanding of the history of the FBI knows that it was never without bias and capable of using its power for political and/or personal reasons. Despite Hoover's personal acrimony towards the Kennedy's, Hollywood, the Civil Rights movement, the anti-war movement, a sitting President nor high ranking elected official ever publicly questioned the bureaus's basic legitimacy. Even the Kennedys who were Hoover's mortal enemies understood it could compromise national security, was too reflective of non-democratic governments, as well as a being a "don't throw stones in glass houses" reality.

[IlliniDave]

Edith, we'll have to agree to disagree. I still think it is what the FBI did (it's leaders are still part of it) that discredited them, not what DT did or didn't tweet. If lower level FBI employees have had their life made more difficult because of what their bosses tried to do, maybe when they ascend to leadership in time they will remember and behave more faithfully so their own subordinates do not go through the same.

[IlliniDave]

Even the Kennedys who were Hoover's mortal enemies understood it could compromise national security, was too reflective of non-democratic governments, as well as a being a "don't throw stones in glass houses" reality.

Hoover did not try to discredit and oust Kennedy from the presidency, which would have been a much graver blow to national security.

[Jason]

If you think for one minute Hoover wasn't trying his best on that account, you are sadly mistaken. The guy had more files on people than fucking Facebook. The only difference is that at that time in the country history, people didn't care who these guys were banging. They just needed more. As much as Trump hates the Clintons, he should know what happens when the stuff comes up. The hypocrisy is a moot point. It's how the game is now played. The guy dragged out three women who accused Clinton of sexual abuse. He wanted a sword fight and now he's got one. What's different about this? Really. I don't get it. I'm not saying I agree with it, but its the lay of the land. Pardon the pun.

But that's not the point. If you think the FBI can autonomously discredit and oust a President you have no understanding of the the democratic process with regard to rules of impeachment. He is investigating. That's their job. And it's essential to the country that it be permitted. Even if you think it's an unfair investigation, it still has to uncover evidence worthy of impeachment.

[EdithKeeler]

Edith, we'll have to agree to disagree. I still think it is what the FBI did (it's leaders are still part of it) that discredited them, not what DT did or didn't tweet. If lower level FBI employees have had their life made more difficult because of what their bosses tried to do, maybe when they ascend to leadership in time they will remember and behave more faithfully so their own subordinates do not go through the same.

Yeah, I guess we will have to disagree.

What, exactly, did its leaders really do that you’re concerned about? Your take, not the Steve Bannon talking points. Yes, I do think the 2 agents trading the anti-Trump emails back and forth were wrong and made the agency look really bad. Yes, I do think Comey mishandled some of the timing of the announcements re. the email investigation on Hillary. I think much of the rest of it has been a smokescreen ginned up to create questions and controversy to discredit the FBI. (Disclaimer: I went to college with James Comey, though I didn’t know him).

The issue is not rank and file agents’ lives being “made more difficult.” The issue is that if the organization tasked with catching the bad guys is discredited, then more bad guys get away. It’s really that simple. If Trump says—and he has—that the FBI is in disarray, poorly managed, etc., criminals and their attorneys can seize on that in defending their criminal clients. And I’m not talking about political people, I’m talking about drug dealers, terrorists, murderers, kidnappers, white collar criminals. Like I said: juries read tweets and the news about tweets. Every time Trump publically questions law enforcement, it gives the defense something to point at to create reasonable doubt. “Hmmm... the FBI is pretty messed up... maybe they did mishandle that evidence. Maybe it was contaminated. After all, Trump said several times the FBI was in tatters, and this attorney is saying it too. Maybe I can’t vote to convict this guy.” I do a lot of stuff with mock juries— on the civil side, not criminal— but it’s scarily amazing how much stuff juries bring in to their decision making that has nothing to do with the actual evidence that’s been presented. It’s going to take years for the FBI to recover from this, to the detriment, in my opinion, of all of us.

ETA: I guess I just feel really passionately about the president of the United States knocking our justice system. That’s what it comes down to for me WRT the idea of firing Mueller and casting doubt on the FBI and our judges, etc. Our system is not perfect, and we do have some issues that need to be addressed. But his aspersions on the FBI , judges, etc. cast unwarranted doubt on a system that every American should take great pride in, a system that citizens of many other countries would love to have. I have no problem with people expressing how they feel.... but Trump’s words matter way more than a rank and file citizen’s bitching.

[BRUTE]

He wanted a sword fight and now he's got one. [..] Even if you think it's an unfair investigation, it still has to uncover evidence worthy of impeachment.

these two quotes cover brute's opinion on this pretty well. the investigation should be left unhindered. but if nothing actually illegal is uncovered, that's that.

so far, Muller seems to mainly have found out that Trump is a douchebag, cheated on his wives, and surrounds himself with humans of similar character.

brute is convinced that Trump + team would've taken any chance to cheat or collude with anyone, including Russians. but until something of that nature is actually proven, there's no impeaching. can't impeach a president for being a cheating douchebag unless he broke the law.

[Jason]

ETA: I guess I just feel really passionately about the president of the United States knocking our justice system. That’s what it comes down to for me WRT the idea of firing Mueller and casting doubt on the FBI and our judges, etc. Our system is not perfect, and we do have some issues that need to be addressed. But his aspersions on the FBI , judges, etc. cast unwarranted doubt on a system that every American should take great pride in, a system that citizens of many other countries would love to have. I have no problem with people expressing how they feel.... but Trump’s words matter way more than a rank and file citizen’s bitching.

Suspicions of the the judiciary date back to the founding. There was concern that men wearing robes in a austere building would be reminiscent of a priestly class operating in a church. But the suspicions were based on acquisition of power, not commitment to basic constitutional principals. The whole system is based on suspicion. But this is the first time since the Civil War that the basic legitimacy of government branches is under attack by member(s) of other branches. And there is really nothing dirtier or different going on now than has in the past.

[TimeTravel]

Some thing that pulling the security clearance of John Brennan is just an roundabout way of trying to sabatoge to Mueller investigation. Of course, others think this is just a diversion away from Omarosa .

[TimeTravel]

Looks like Manafort is agreeing to sing for Mueller. I guess those cramped prison cells have a way of changing a person's mind.

Paul Manafort, formerly President Donald Trump's campaign chairman, pleaded guilty Friday in Washington, D.C., to two new counts, admitted his guilt in 10 counts outstanding from his earlier trial in Virginia and agreed to cooperate with federal prosecutors.

Under the plea deal with special counsel Robert Mueller's team, Manafort agreed to forfeit multiple bank accounts and properties — including his apartment in Trump Tower — and to cooperate with investigators, including participating in interviews, providing documents and testifying in court.

The cooperation agreement filed with the court Friday says that Manafort must cooperate fully with the government in "any and all matters as to what the Government deems the cooperation relevant."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... smsnnews11