False Flags for Newbies

[Clarice]

I am posting this link with the understanding that we will never learn the truth. However, I am interested in an intelligent American/European perspective on this ex-Russian spy turned British spy story. I am providing the link to the intelligent, albeit biased, Russian perspective. I think that ERE is an appropriate forum for this discussion since there are many people here who are unafraid to go against the grain. I am also curious to see if there are people here who are interested in this topic.

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2018/03/f ... .html#more

[Gilberto de Piento]

I'm afraid to even click on the link.

[Clarice]

I'm afraid to even click on the link.

@Gilberto de Piento:



Please don't be. The author Dmitry Orlov is sort of like Jacob - widely known in narrow circles. I liked his books The Five Stages of Collapse and Shrinking the Technosphere. You'll click and then you'll be around to tell your story.

[Riggerjack]

I'm completely unfamiliar with the assassination attempt, and no expert on international relations... But.

The author seems to be looking for any reason that this could be a false flag, and some of those reasons are beyond a stretch.

"Couldn't be Russians, right before elections?" Yeah. Is there anyone who thinks Putin is about to be a retired dictator? It's not smart timing, but small operations happen when they happen, not when someone 17 steps up the chain of command wants it to. If someone was concerned with both the election and the assassination, he could veto timing, but I doubt anyone had both responsibilities and enough information to make a call in time.

Which is not to say the Russians did it. I don't know, and odds are very good none of us will, ever.

My general assumption is that May is lying. And Putin is lying, and trump is lying. Because that's what they do. It's rarely in their interests to fully disclose anything, and we the people have made it clear we don't care.

So the people listening to May are on, or against, Team May. The people listening to Putin are on, or against, Team Putin. And the people listening to trump are just fools, both those for and against. Trump does nothing like what he says, so why listen, just look.

And how it really works is anyone's guess.

[BlueNote]

From my limited knowledge (Wikipedia, history channel etc.) I think that the Russians (and Soviets) had a much more effective spying system (politics, attitudes, training etc.) than the west. A somewhat functional democracy and constitutional system doesn't provide the type of opportunities that a dictatorship does. Isn't much of their initial nuclear weapons knowledge from spying? Anyways I wouldn't put it past that countries spies to pull something like this off.

[Chris]

In concluding his false flag theory, he states:

but there is a silver lining to this cloud as far as Russia is concerned: Britain (and, by association, the US) will now have a much harder time recruiting double agents from inside the Russian government, since their recruitment prospects will now know that they will remain vulnerable even if they escape, or are pardoned and exchanged.

Uh, doesn't this "silver lining" sound like a good Russian motive?

As for using an exotic killing method, yeah, it could have been used by another actor to point the finger at Russia. If it was Russia, why would they be so blatant? Because they want it to be blatant: hey traitors, we can kill you, wherever you are.

[vexed87]

Russia is a convenient enemy, so it would not surprise me if this turns out to be a false flag, but who knows, maybe the guy just pissed off the wrong Oligarchs... However it's equally possibly he pissed off his own handlers in British secret service, or he was simply disposed of by another rouge state, individual, corporate interest for whatever convenient reason... I doubt the 'truth' will come out because there's little in the way of actual evidence being shared, just tenuous links to Russia. The overt nature of the attack means whoever did it in whatever upper echelons of power/policaital influence wanted the outcome, fingers pointing at Russia. I just hope the current government doesn't prod the tiger too aggressively because without Russian natural gas imports the UK gas market would be in trouble. We are totally dependent on LPG imports of which Russia provides substantial quantities. We need imports to heat our homes and run many industrial processes. May knows this, which is why any sanctions on Russia will be toothless for fear of serious reprisals.

I find the moralizing and finger pointing in the media unbearable, because our own state is just as guilty of state sanctioned murder, private arms deals & foreign affairs meddling in geopolitical interests as the Russian state. It's painfully ironic that we as a nation condemn these actions whilst our own state has just as much blood on its hands. But hey, it's the Russians... they're EVIL, but we'll look the other way when our own state is to blame for grievous crimes in the name of resource security and geopolitical power.

Sort of half on topic, Chris Martenson & James Kunstler discuss the Russia theme in this podcast, albeit not specifically in relation to this murder, but it sort of addresses lots of Russian false flags, of course this is focused on US/Russian relations, but UK is basically acting unilaterally with US interests on the geopolitical stage... https://www.peakprosperity.com/podcast/ ... onomy-less

[Clarice]

Sort of half on topic, Chris Martenson & James Kunstler discuss the Russia theme in this podcast, albeit not specifically in relation to this murder, but it sort of addresses lots of Russian false flags, of course this is focused on US/Russian relations, but UK is basically acting unilaterally with US interests on the geopolitical stage... https://www.peakprosperity.com/podcast/ ... onomy-less

@vexed87:

Thanks for the link - it's as close to the topic as we can get without a very specialized knowledge. It's inspiring to see people who have not succumbed to the madness of crowds.

[RFS]

From age 15 to 18, I literally dreamt of being a state department diplomat. Then I saw this video. I'm down to talk about false flags any day.

This is some seriously shady shit. We're in the most geopolitically tense time in decades, and Russia's intelligence service decides to assassinate someone... with an exotic chemical easily traced back to Russia?

Craig Murray, a highly problematic whistleblower, wrote on his blog that Porton Down (The UKs only chemical weapons facility) have expressed doubt about the very existence of Novichok agents. And yet we are being asked to believe on the basis of precisely no publicly-presented evidence that Porton Down chemists know that the substance in question is a Novichok agent. And that they know it came from Russia.

[Jason]

I watch Homeland and they have injected the Russian narrative into the plot. It made me realize there’s something nostalgic about having them as an enemy again as it brings us back to John LeCarre Tinker tailor soldier spy days. So they post a few Facebook messages or meddle in our elections or send hot women over to sleep with government officials. It’s a break from having to worry about airplanes flying into our buildings and dealing with foreign enemies who we have absolutely nothing in common with and who don’t seem to care about traditional rules of engagement like mutually assured destruction. It’s just back to old spy games. Maybe a plane gets shot down, or missiles get pointed but I don’t think it makes anyone feel really threatened. It’s just two kids, one rural and bare chested and riding a horse, and another spoliled urban rich one living in a golden tower having some after school fun.

[enigmaT120]

Hey I'm a government official. Where are my hot women?

[Jason]

So I've never even investigated Reddit. Is there any good reason I should?

See above

[Riggerjack]

@ Jason, +1.

The Russian Threat feels like season 7 of any series. The writers are out of good ideas, bad ideas, and now they are just changing the names/dates on old scripts.

What's the story? A few Russians, $100k and Facebook overthrew a superpower's election? If true (huge if), we need to catch these guys and get them to teach the CIA how that is done. Seriously, less than my 401k? And the CIA would call $100k a rounding error. It's not enough to open a file.

Russian assassins. Using Russian chemical weapons? Maybe. Or not. But there is literally no telling. At this point, the CIA might know, if they helped. But really, there is no knowing. Even if we caught the assassin, he may not know who he was working for, if he could be convinced to talk.

The whole thing just feels played out. A reused Hollywood trope. Played for us in 30 second FB video clips.

[Jason]

Many of the topics on the political forum meld into one another, and I don't want to take this in another direction. But I was reading JLF's post-factual thread and it occurred to me that "Fake News" does not just refer to the facts, it's the presentation, the context as well. I mean is Fox News or CNN talk shows anything but the media equivalent of a WWE wrestling match? Between the graphics and announcers and hype and returning guests and breaking news over trivial bullshit, it gives the impression that it wants people to believe its fake. Why? So people keep returning for the entertainment. Even if the facts are arguably, accurate, it's presented in a fake setting so the facts ultimately don't mean anything anyways. It's entertainment, not an argument with a conclusion. It presents the news as though there are no real stakes. I understand that even Buckley vs. Vidal was somewhat entertainment, but at least you got some discussion within the arguments. And you got the impression that they wanted it be "real" and there was something to actually win or lose.

So back to the topic at hand. Trump vs. Putin should be the latest incarnation of Reagan vs. Gorbachev or Nixon vs. Brezhnev or Kruchev vs. Kennedy or Roosevelt vs. Stalin. But everyone knows its really Rocky vs. Drago. Its gotten to the point where I don't take a media account seriously if it doesn't discuss the real possibility that when Trump meets Kim, some Chinese guy is going to come out from backstage and slam a folding chair over Kim's head. Which would be kind of cool, but that's not the point.

So is it a false flag? Well, who cares when everyone knows the moon its being planted in is actually a sound stage.

[Clarice]

I must say that I've enjoyed everybody's input on the subject so far. I am saddened how easy it is for the MSM to sell the narrative "Putin goes rogue, poisons a retired grandpa". Here is a funny version of it:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/putin ... on-attack/

[Clarice]

Actually, here is the original funny piece:
http://www.the-postillon.com/2018/03/sa ... putin.html