A brief discussion of abortion

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PhilosopherSarah
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Re: A brief discussion of abortion

Post by PhilosopherSarah » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:59 pm

Like most political debates, I do not even understand why the debate gets framed the way it does. I tune out of most political debates, since I think most of it is just mass entertainment/spectacle. I agree with earlier points that it would make sense to re-frame this political debate as a debate about birth control methods and birth control education. Public agreement on how to provide birth control education and resources would go a long way toward lowering the number of abortions -- and unwanted children -- per year.

The jaded part of me thinks that neither side cares that much about actually reducing abortion and unwanted children; rather, it is a political red herring that gives people an excuse to not engage in more meaningful and time-intensive forms of politics and governance. *Being a single-issue voter allows you to deceive yourself into believing you are actually an engaged citizen.* Millennials (like myself) get a lot of heat for not engaging in national politics, but in my lifetime I have started a nonprofit and have been very engaged in the communities I am part of -- far more than my parents ever were. I only have so much time and attention to devote, and national politics seems like a major waste of time, mere spectacle.

I think most people do view abortion as unethical; however, people are allowed (by law) to do all sorts of unethical things. I have always found it odd that "pro-life" people support the large-scale torture of nonhuman animals in laboratories and factory farms. I have always found it odd that "pro-choice" people also often support legalized prostitution, though they normally will not go so far as to support selling one's own organs. The first group supposes that only *human* life matters; the second group seem to miss something about the sacredness of life and the living body. (I am not religious, but I do not think you have to be religious to recover some sense of the 'sacred'.)

As for personal ethics: I personally would only get an abortion in extreme cases -- probably death of the child or of myself. As a result, I have practiced very cautious sex. Since I view sex as a serious, possibly reproductive act (and not just "fun", though of course it is fun), it is not hard for me be cautious about sex. I also do not take hormonal birth control, because it hurts my body. I have a lot of love for my own body and spirit, so I choose not to engage in casual sex. I am amazed by the amount of violence the modern woman allows against her own body -- hormonal birth control, abortion, abusive sexual partners. (A lot of this is a result of cultural conditioning, sadly.) What is missing from this debate about abortion is our own noxious attitudes about sexuality and the female body that undergird the entire thing. Our attitudes toward sexuality and the human body look a lot like those in Huxley's "Brave New World". This scares me more than anything.

George the original one
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Re: A brief discussion of abortion

Post by George the original one » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:19 pm

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:13 pm
Traditional morality works in rural communities where people are generalists and children are wealth.
Aren't you ignoring the many societies where a dowry for specific sex of child is required, often leading to infanticide to avoid having to pay a dowry 13-20 years in the future?

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Kriegsspiel
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Re: A brief discussion of abortion

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:37 pm

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:25 am
Because children aren't fetuses.
They're more resource-draining though*.

*also applies to radamfi, since someone's gonna have to pay for the goddamn things.

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GandK
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Re: A brief discussion of abortion

Post by GandK » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:47 am

PhilosopherSarah wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:59 pm
Like most political debates, I do not even understand why the debate gets framed the way it does. I tune out of most political debates, since I think most of it is just mass entertainment/spectacle.
You're right. It's sports fan mentality.

Re the difference with politics in being a Millennial, I'm not sure there is one. I've heard members of my generation (Xers) postulate that the reason politics has become sports-fan-ish is because Millennials, because it wasn't this way when we were kids. But we forget that several things were different in the 80s and 90s, the biggest being the near-absence of the Internet and social media. Almost every piece of information that reached the general public back then had been curated.

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luxagraf
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Re: A brief discussion of abortion

Post by luxagraf » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:56 am

GandK wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:47 am
I've heard members of my generation (Xers) postulate that the reason politics has become sports-fan-ish is because Millennials, because it wasn't this way when we were kids. But we forget that several things were different in the 80s and 90s, the biggest being the near-absence of the Internet and social media. Almost every piece of information that reached the general public back then had been curated.
As a member of generation X (I think), I completely remember political debate being this way from the first time I can remember politics existing, which happens to be the election of Ronald Reagan, which was the first time I'd seen my dad cry.

But to me it always seemed like just sports-fan style entertainment. Back then it was the volvo and granola team vs the polo-shirted yacht owning team. Status indicators change, but teams are more or less the same today. Me I like baseball so I got my sport-fan entertainment kick from that until even that got too farcical for me.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: A brief discussion of abortion

Post by ThisDinosaur » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:42 pm

George the original one wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:19 pm
Aren't you ignoring the many societies where a dowry for specific sex of child is required, often leading to infanticide to avoid having to pay a dowry 13-20 years in the future?
I'm sure I'm ignoring a lot of the potentially infinite combinations of moral systems. Like those where infanticide of the disfigured is acceptable. Or where women and certain social classes are considered less human. Or ones where eating meat is murder.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: A brief discussion of abortion

Post by ThisDinosaur » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:02 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:37 pm
ThisDinosaur wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:25 am
Because children aren't fetuses.
They're more resource-draining though*.

*also applies to radamfi, since someone's gonna have to pay for the goddamn things.
People see abortion as progressively more repugnant the closer it is to term, meaning, the more the fetus looks like a newborn. There is science to show that morality is judged by our emotions, not by logic. We judge something as immoral if it strikes us as "gross," or "unfair," and then we use logical reasoning to justify those judgements.
Since an embryo doesn't look human, and you never see a preterm fetus unless it's already dead, there is a wide range of opinions as to the morality of abortion. I take this to mean that all morality is subjective. Not necessarily meaningless, useless, or arbitrary. But subjective.

CoffeeSnob
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Re: A brief discussion of abortion

Post by CoffeeSnob » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:48 pm

Not to reignite an inactive thread, but here’s my two cents...

Any “state” you apply to a fetus to justify killing it can also be applied to adults in specific scenarios (ie; an adult in a coma that will eventually be cured).

If there is any interest I can lay out a more logical defense of the above view, but that pretty much sums it up.

I personally feel like pro-lifers would be better off using logic than emotion... they actually have the upper hand but never seem to use it, falling back on excuses like religion and “it’s just wrong”.

enigmaT120
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Re: A brief discussion of abortion

Post by enigmaT120 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:48 pm

If the live adult in a coma is somehow a parasite in another person, then your analogy might work.

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BRUTE
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Re: A brief discussion of abortion

Post by BRUTE » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:31 pm

well, the comatose human adult would still consume resources.. is the "in" part that important?

enigmaT120
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Re: A brief discussion of abortion

Post by enigmaT120 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:24 pm

To me, yeah. He's just one more parasite that I'm supporting through my taxes or (in this case) insurance premiums. No big deal.

My hypothetical long unknown identical twin that was absorbed into my body but now has started developing and may very probably cause adverse effects on me and my health would be a much bigger deal to me, and that's how I feel about pregnancy if the woman doesn't want it.

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BRUTE
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Re: A brief discussion of abortion

Post by BRUTE » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:38 am

that whole thing kinda falls apart if she voluntarily created the parasite within herself.

CoffeeSnob
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Re: A brief discussion of abortion

Post by CoffeeSnob » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:55 am

Let’s try to structure logic around my view point;

If you kill a normal/healthy adult without cause I think we would all agree that that would be “morally wrong”... why? Because of his or her “inevitable future”.

On the other hand, an adult in a veggitative state has no future, and a murderer presents a “future danger” to society... we are going to conveniently ignore these scenarios for the sake of simplicity.

Using the above definition of “morally wrong” and valuation of human life (future based) here is my statement of logic;

Killing a healthy adult human without cause is morally wrong because they have an inevitable future
A fetus has an inevitable future
Therefore killing a fetus is morally wrong

* I would like to separate the woman’s bodily rights for now... that is phase 2 of my logic, and is unrelated to establishing fetal rights
** I don’t want to meander in to a discussion about defining morality

enigmaT120
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Re: A brief discussion of abortion

Post by enigmaT120 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:47 pm

BRUTE wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:38 am
that whole thing kinda falls apart if she voluntarily created the parasite within herself.
What percentage voluntarily get pregnant then decide to abort? If you are just blaming them for having sex, I oppose that because I think there is too little sex going on now, not too much.

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BRUTE
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Re: A brief discussion of abortion

Post by BRUTE » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:01 am

but having sex is what causes the pregnancy, is it not?

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7Wannabe5
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Re: A brief discussion of abortion

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:22 am

Men have the luxury of being able to think of their bodies as being like machines and their lives as being like video games or some other complicated but essentially linear quest(or maybe at least until the day on some battlefield they find themselves trying to tuck a brother’s guts back into his belly.) Women not so much because our bodies change in rhythm with the moon and the oceans.

Inside does matter when you are 6 lunar months pregnant and suffering from acute appendicitis and alone alone in a hospital.

enigmaT120
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Re: A brief discussion of abortion

Post by enigmaT120 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:23 am

BRUTE wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:01 am
but having sex is what causes the pregnancy, is it not?
Not with me, ha! But yeah they should probably quit getting raped and stuff too.

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BRUTE
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Re: A brief discussion of abortion

Post by BRUTE » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:21 pm

percentage of abortions where the pregnancy was initiated by rape? brute would be surprised if it's significant.

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