A brief discussion of abortion

[George the original one]

Traditional morality works in rural communities where people are generalists and children are wealth.

Aren't you ignoring the many societies where a dowry for specific sex of child is required, often leading to infanticide to avoid having to pay a dowry 13-20 years in the future?

[Kriegsspiel]

Because children aren't fetuses.

They're more resource-draining though*.

*also applies to radamfi, since someone's gonna have to pay for the goddamn things.

[GandK]

Like most political debates, I do not even understand why the debate gets framed the way it does. I tune out of most political debates, since I think most of it is just mass entertainment/spectacle.

You're right. It's sports fan mentality.

Re the difference with politics in being a Millennial, I'm not sure there is one. I've heard members of my generation (Xers) postulate that the reason politics has become sports-fan-ish is because Millennials, because it wasn't this way when we were kids. But we forget that several things were different in the 80s and 90s, the biggest being the near-absence of the Internet and social media. Almost every piece of information that reached the general public back then had been curated.

[luxagraf]

I've heard members of my generation (Xers) postulate that the reason politics has become sports-fan-ish is because Millennials, because it wasn't this way when we were kids. But we forget that several things were different in the 80s and 90s, the biggest being the near-absence of the Internet and social media. Almost every piece of information that reached the general public back then had been curated.

As a member of generation X (I think), I completely remember political debate being this way from the first time I can remember politics existing, which happens to be the election of Ronald Reagan, which was the first time I'd seen my dad cry.

But to me it always seemed like just sports-fan style entertainment. Back then it was the volvo and granola team vs the polo-shirted yacht owning team. Status indicators change, but teams are more or less the same today. Me I like baseball so I got my sport-fan entertainment kick from that until even that got too farcical for me.

[ThisDinosaur]

Aren't you ignoring the many societies where a dowry for specific sex of child is required, often leading to infanticide to avoid having to pay a dowry 13-20 years in the future?

I'm sure I'm ignoring a lot of the potentially infinite combinations of moral systems. Like those where infanticide of the disfigured is acceptable. Or where women and certain social classes are considered less human. Or ones where eating meat is murder.

[ThisDinosaur]

Because children aren't fetuses.

They're more resource-draining though*.

*also applies to radamfi, since someone's gonna have to pay for the goddamn things.

People see abortion as progressively more repugnant the closer it is to term, meaning, the more the fetus looks like a newborn. There is science to show that morality is judged by our emotions, not by logic. We judge something as immoral if it strikes us as "gross," or "unfair," and then we use logical reasoning to justify those judgements.
Since an embryo doesn't look human, and you never see a preterm fetus unless it's already dead, there is a wide range of opinions as to the morality of abortion. I take this to mean that all morality is subjective. Not necessarily meaningless, useless, or arbitrary. But subjective.

[CoffeeSnob]

Not to reignite an inactive thread, but here’s my two cents...

Any “state” you apply to a fetus to justify killing it can also be applied to adults in specific scenarios (ie; an adult in a coma that will eventually be cured).

If there is any interest I can lay out a more logical defense of the above view, but that pretty much sums it up.

I personally feel like pro-lifers would be better off using logic than emotion... they actually have the upper hand but never seem to use it, falling back on excuses like religion and “it’s just wrong”.

[enigmaT120]

If the live adult in a coma is somehow a parasite in another person, then your analogy might work.

[BRUTE]

well, the comatose human adult would still consume resources.. is the "in" part that important?

[enigmaT120]

To me, yeah. He's just one more parasite that I'm supporting through my taxes or (in this case) insurance premiums. No big deal.

My hypothetical long unknown identical twin that was absorbed into my body but now has started developing and may very probably cause adverse effects on me and my health would be a much bigger deal to me, and that's how I feel about pregnancy if the woman doesn't want it.

[BRUTE]

that whole thing kinda falls apart if she voluntarily created the parasite within herself.

[CoffeeSnob]

Let’s try to structure logic around my view point;

If you kill a normal/healthy adult without cause I think we would all agree that that would be “morally wrong”... why? Because of his or her “inevitable future”.

On the other hand, an adult in a veggitative state has no future, and a murderer presents a “future danger” to society... we are going to conveniently ignore these scenarios for the sake of simplicity.

Using the above definition of “morally wrong” and valuation of human life (future based) here is my statement of logic;

Killing a healthy adult human without cause is morally wrong because they have an inevitable future
A fetus has an inevitable future
Therefore killing a fetus is morally wrong

* I would like to separate the woman’s bodily rights for now... that is phase 2 of my logic, and is unrelated to establishing fetal rights
** I don’t want to meander in to a discussion about defining morality

[enigmaT120]

that whole thing kinda falls apart if she voluntarily created the parasite within herself.

What percentage voluntarily get pregnant then decide to abort? If you are just blaming them for having sex, I oppose that because I think there is too little sex going on now, not too much.

[BRUTE]

but having sex is what causes the pregnancy, is it not?

[7Wannabe5]

Men have the luxury of being able to think of their bodies as being like machines and their lives as being like video games or some other complicated but essentially linear quest(or maybe at least until the day on some battlefield they find themselves trying to tuck a brother’s guts back into his belly.) Women not so much because our bodies change in rhythm with the moon and the oceans.

Inside does matter when you are 6 lunar months pregnant and suffering from acute appendicitis and alone alone in a hospital.

[enigmaT120]

but having sex is what causes the pregnancy, is it not?

Not with me, ha! But yeah they should probably quit getting raped and stuff too.

[BRUTE]

percentage of abortions where the pregnancy was initiated by rape? brute would be surprised if it's significant.