Nationalism on the Rise: Us vs Them

[slowtraveler]

I was in another forum and someone mentioned that extreme nationalism was a risk to my current lifestyle.

I haven't experienced much discrimination on this end, quite the contrary. I feel I'm treated better as a foreigner. But is this actually a rising global situation outside of rural America? Or more like the PC thing, joked about but only adopted by a small fringe culture that manages to get a spotlight in the media due to being loud?

[James_0011]

Having grown up in rural America, I do not think nationalism / Anti pc culture is a “small” fringe culture.

[ether]

The contradiction within American nationalism movements is a majority of them support strong state rights and are more regionalists than nationalists.

[slowtraveler]

I didn't mean anti PC was a small fringe culture. I meant PC itself, I still think it's a joke nobody takes seriously. I only have heard about PC in 2 places and I lived in Silicon Valley... I only know about PC through South Park and one thread on this forum. I have never heard a single person in real life checking someone's privelage.

But nationalism is a real thing in rural America. I am more curious if it exists outside of a few small hotspots of activity like rural America or Greece. In Thailand, Mexico, Turkey, etc. I see no sense of anti foreigner sentiment. Quite the opposite. Hence my question. Is it like the PC thing? Something that I'll likely never see in real life but see joked about on South Park and see occasional internet threads about but that has little ties to reality or is it an actual rising situation?

[Tyler9000]

IMHO, nationalism is real but for the most part is not the sensationalized caricature that some people make it out to be. Pride in one's nation is historically very mainstream and not at all hateful. But modern politics drives people crazy and has them seeing evil in every shadow.

[The Old Man]

You should investigate European Identitarianism.

[Tyler9000]

Don't get me wrong -- I have no doubt that potentially dangerous nationalist groups exist. I just think the population who really buys into that stuff is a small minority that gets way more press than they deserve and one should not lump everyone together. Richard Spencer does not represent your average family-first flag-waving nationalist just like Fred Phelps did not represent your average Christian and bike-lock-wielding Antifa rioters do not represent your average good-hearted liberal activist. But the press latches onto the extremes, the caricatures get ingrained thanks to confirmation bias, and everyone starts to see perfectly normal and rational opposing views as evil and dangerous while assuming certain fringe movements are a lot larger than they really are.

[fiby41]

Those who think extreme nationalism is a risk to their current lifestyle are a risk to my current lifestyle.

[IlliniDave]

I think nationalism is longstanding and natural, not some unique product of rural USA. We've used sports metaphors on here before. Soccer is the most popular/widespread sport on the planet (and relatively late catching on in the US, especially rural flyover US). Its biggest event is the World Cup, where teams are determined by ... nationality. Arguably Brexit is a product of the desire to preserve a national identity. I think in some circles in the present time there is a tendency to conflate symptoms and causes. Nationalism is typically a response to a perceived threat, even if it is simply that a place with a different name and language can field a better soccer team than the place where you live. At the same time nationalism is not ubiquitous, and there have always been groups that don't fit neatly into a system of national borders (usually ethnic ties, but there are others), and there is a natural tendency for tension to exist.

[jacob]

Extreme nationalism can be a threat to your "current lifestyle as a foreigner" if it achieves some governmental support, such as is currently the case in many countries. Governments set policy and example, and the "good people" will typically follow along. Historically, many of them will not even be aware of what they're following and might even be in denial about it. For the most part, most will not think too deeply about it, because the consequences are immaterial to them---as far as they're concerned, it's just something they see on TV.

The closest thing I've seen were pair of "SS bolts" (the two parallel zigzags) scribbled into the restroom wall somewhere in Ohio---first time I've personally seen Nazi symbolism in the US (I've seen a lot more in Europe). However, I'm white, male, not a muslim, and my papers are in order (something that seems to be the preferred combo amongst American nationalists) and that's "4 for 4" so it would be unlikely that some individual or a gang would pick me out at this level of nationalism---which unfortunately often goes along with other -isms. The only boxes I haven't checked to fit in perfectly in "this world" is "citizenship" and "natural born". I can never check the last one. I suspect personal worry about nationalism is inversely proportional to how many boxes you personally checked.---It's always like that. I bet there's some Wheaton level effect to the amount of worry one feels. FWIW, Some Americans have specifically told me not to worry (and I do worry) because "you're a white male". Just ponder [the mindset behind] that one for a while

Still, using the US as an example; international student enrollment and foreign tourism was significantly down in 2017; as was illegal work-based immigration. These groups are obviously the least sticky or has the most optionality of picking a more welcoming country. But suppose you enrolled or came in 2016; you might wonder if your "lifestyle" as a US foreign student is still viable/useful. As a tourist, you might prefer to visit someplace with significantly less visa hoops to jump through---wouldn't be fun to get stuck in the airport and getting your vacation ruined because of some EO clusterfuck when you can just go to Canada or Italy instead and not worry about it. It's the rational choice.

For similarly "flexible" people, consider the internations expat survey (of what people who multi-country experience consider the best countries to live in). US has dropped to rank 40+ mostly citing "political instability" as a reason. By which they don't mean street riots but rather the concern that come next year, you might find that your passport suddenly has the wrong color relative to policy in which case, maybe you would prefer not to take that job transfer to the US (legal work-based immigration) if and when you had the option to go to Panama, Singapore, or some other place instead. IOW ... it measures "lifestyle"-concerns; not "are you gonna get killed"-concerns.

Then you have cases where nationalism "changes the world as you knew it". Brexit comes to mind. Consider foreigners living in the UK. And British living in the rest of the EU. For example, Malta has been a typical expat destination of UK retirees. Now it's not sure whether the country you've made a life in during the last 10-15-20 years will let you stay there much longer. It's all up in the air with what the politicians decide. If you're super-settled, you will experience some aspects of what it is like to be a refugee.

In Europe, due to all the refugee streams from the ME wars that have been ongoing for the last 15+ years now, it seems that Muslims are in a worse place than they used to be (there are more now, so people are noticing). When there's critical mass, people simply get thrown into the same basket and policies/behavior get instated. Denmark, for example, had similar problems with chain migration as does the US now. Therefore, some laws were hastily put together which pretty much threw everyone under the bus. It's now hard/impossible for everyone to get a permanent residence for their foreign-born spouse. This includes me. All this came about because some Danes don't like people with head scarfs and enough of them put a party in power that made this their special interest.

Last concern is retaliation. At this level, most people understand that the drive is mainly from the various governments... so as long as you thread carefully, you might be alright. However, I wouldn't want to be an American in Mexico right now with all the tweets flying back and forth---or rather being an American in Mexico now is probably about as fun as it is to be a Mexican in the US currently. It's probably going to be okay on the ground level, but I can't imagine it helping much. Now is probably not the best time to wear "flag" t-shirts while traveling abroad.

The split also exists domestically. I think things would look a lot different if Trump support was not sitting at 35% but around the usual 50-60%. Nationalists are somewhat checked against their worst impulses by the overall lack of public approval. Many people are supportive/empathetic to these issues.

People who like nationalism tend to be mostly those who've never gone/been anywhere but their own country or valley... and so there's no direct effect on them. The indirect effects come later. You can imagine what kind of innovation will not happen in the US because the smartest (that is those with the most options who tend to seek out so-called lands of opportunity) people now decide to go with their #2 country choice instead. OTOH, it might leave more open positions for the natives as a seasonal farmhand or a 7-11 worker to get a job in the present, so there's that.

TL;DR - Yes, nationalism (of the border closing kind) does have impact, but it's highly skewed and only affects a few percent of the population. But it sure isn't fun to be part of that minority currently.

PS: I'm mainly talking about the bad kind of nationalism here. The callous kind that hurts "them". I do recognize that there's also a good kind of nationalism---but that's usually called patriotism and there's a rather different sentiment behind that. The two concepts are not interchangeable!
See http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationa ... lish/e_nat

[Tyler9000]

PS: I'm mainly talking about the bad kind of nationalism here. The callous kind that hurts "them". I do recognize that there's also a good kind of nationalism---but that's usually called patriotism and there's a rather different sentiment behind that. The two concepts are not interchangeable!
See http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationa ... lish/e_nat

Yeah, distinguishing patriotism from nationalism I think captures my perspective well. Thanks for the insight. Along those lines, I'll add that I personally think that being skeptical of certain aspects of modern globalism does not automatically make one "nationalist" in the pejorative sense, although from a language perspective I see why that can get confusing.

[Clarice]

I was in another forum and someone mentioned that extreme nationalism was a risk to my current lifestyle.

I haven't experienced much discrimination on this end, quite the contrary.

As someone who has been on the wrong side of the nationalism divide her whole life (being of mixed Russian and Jewish descent) I would suggest not to search for risks to your current lifestyle on forums, not to listen to talking heads, not to visit obscure websites, etc. The real risks come from the governments and its laws and from the serfs trying to implement/interpret the laws/wishes of the governments. On a personal level, national prejudice is more analogous to bad breath or acne than to cancer or Ebola - unpleasant, but harmless; just walk away and you'll be fine. Right now, I would go crazy from all the irrussianality coming from the US media, but I just choose not to own TV. Best of luck in sorting things out!

[Jean]

Sorry, but in which context is being russian/jewish being on the wrong side?

[Clarice]

Sorry, but in which context is being russian/jewish being on the wrong side?

Being Jewish in Soviet Russia was the wrong side then. Being Russian in the US is the wrong side now. Just to illustrate, a friend of my husband was being hired by Lockheed Martin. He told my husband, "They asked to list my friends. I didn't list you."

[Stahlmann]

"They asked to list my friends.(...) "

?!?!

[Clarice]

@Stahlmann: No personal experience whatsoever, but my second hand knowledge is that it's a standard procedure while getting a job that requires a security clearance.

[unemployable]

For security clearance, I recall being asked everywhere I had lived over the last 15 years and one person who knew me at that address. This was for engineering jobs with companies that made things for the military. So singular rather than plural and more "acquaintance" than "friend". Now that was a long time ago for me, and in an episode of foreshadowing, for a job I didn't get anyway. But yeah, nowadays a native Russian isn't the greatest choice for that, if it ever was.

[jennypenny]

Someone applying to LMT would probably need a rigorous clearance that includes interviewing several friends and family members.

Given the current political environment, I think omitting the names of any Russian friends is prudent, assuming it’s not discovered.

Not saying it’s right, only prudent.

[Dream of Freedom]

"Or more like the PC thing, joked about but only adopted by a small fringe culture that manages to get a spotlight in the media due to being loud?"

PC? Personal computer? Peace corp? Okay, I give up. What is it?

[slowtraveler]

Political Correctness.

I had to Google it at first too.