Race and Net Worth

[nestbuilder]

Ignorant people are the problem regardless of race or color and ignorance is very curable if the person is willing to grow.
[/quote]

I am not clear how acknowledgement and apology by the government negates personal effort or accountability. Hard work can pay off and does for many people from all walks, I never said it couldn't. I also would never suggest anyone sit back and wait for acknowledgement and apology for past wrongs before they try to move forward. Geesh. Nobody would get anywhere, including me, if that was the case.

My point is that if we want to have an informed debate about the present, we would benefit from having consensus about the past. Ignorance is much harder with historical perspective. When a society integrates that more complete historical perspective into their dialogue and it is the truth they build their arguments on, then real progress can be made. That is all.

It does not mean anyone needs to be sorry for the sins of their ancestors, they just need to be honest about them. Likewise, I love my country but the U.S. government has done some unconscionable things and needs to take responsibility for them. Many of our families have benefited directly or indirectly over the generations by at minimum not being the target of systemic oppression. Just acknowledge it. I don't see what the big deal is.

[CS]

And I find it very weird that we condemn people for painting cultures with a wide brush but somehow that logic doesn't apply to those of White European descent. Racism is racism regardless the source. If you claim white people are a problem, you're being racist - no different that stating black people are a problem. Neither of the aforementioned statements are true. Ignorant people are the problem regardless of race or color and ignorance is very curable if the person is willing to grow.

+1 After being kicked out of an online group for stating similar, it's nice to hear someone else state it.

[Campitor]

It does not mean anyone needs to be sorry for the sins of their ancestors, they just need to be honest about them. Likewise, I love my country but the U.S. government has done some unconscionable things and needs to take responsibility for them. Many of our families have benefited directly or indirectly over the generations by at minimum not being the target of systemic oppression. Just acknowledge it. I don't see what the big deal is.

People have acknowledged it. The problem relates to wanting people to pay for what was acknowledged when they had zero involvement with it. White people owned slaves - it was horrible and despicable. The price for it was paid partially with the 600k+ causalities of soldiers during the civil war (north and south). I acknowledge that this is probably a fraction of how many slaves died but this is exactly my point. People dredge up history so they can use it as a score card to play "who suffered more" or "who can we blame" for today's issues. History is important - it's a road map to what might happen or how bad and good things can come about. But it shouldn't be used as a bludgeon against present generations who had zero participation in what occurred or the decisions made - if this was the case we should just blow up half the human population because everyone has blood on their hands if we point to historical sins.

At best we all have roughly 80 years of life - should any of it be wasted on playing the blame game on historical injustices? Wouldn't it be better spent taking personal actions to ensure a better future for yourself and the next generation? If whites said "I'm sorry" and gave each African American 377k would that solve black issues forever? 14 trillion (upper reparation estimate) divided by 37 million (US black population) = approximately 377k; 188k per African American would be the lower range of reparation paid. Could the US afford to pay 14 trillion or 7 trillion in reparations? I don't think so. So reparations is a pipe dream. And history in this context only serves to embitter and fuel the racial divide.

[7Wannabe5]

there is also a minority of people who derive their self-worth almost exclusively through group-identity. Maybe, they're "proud to be American" or maybe they're just "proud to be someone's parents" neither of which relates to their personal achievements but nevertheless matters greatly to them---because maybe they have nothing else to be proud off

Now this is where I draw the line when it comes to Libertarian theory. Nobody, no matter how inherently high-functioning, popped out of the womb ready to roll. There are people who just "be" a parent, but there is also a good deal of "do" involved. Even given that there are currently too many humans on the planet, unless one is to take the profoundly anti-social stance that NO more humans should be born and raised, somebody has to do the work of caring for the young, not to mention the elderly, the ill, and the mentally incapacitated. And it seems to me that somebody should have at least as much cause to be proud of coaxing a bright 5 year old who has already been acculturated against education into taking an interest in reading, as somebody who performed the much less complex task of programming a robot Doing the work of caring for your own young children is both easier and more difficult than caring for other people's children, but it's still hard work. That's why when two old women, like me and Campitor's mom find themselves riding on a train together, they will sometimes reminisce about babies who cried for three nights straight with colic, or teenage sons who jumped off the back of a truck while drunk; just like old men will talk about the last war.

Obviously, considering adult members of a different skin tone or culture to be like babies who need assistance is condescension-form-racism, but the fact that racism is idiotic means that it is a realm in which there is hope for great success in helping children if this is their only barrier. OTOH, I can't work with severely cognitively impaired children without just wanting to cry, but I still think Riggerjack and BRUTE would chip in a quarter to pay me to help a little girl with severe disabilities spend a fun afternoon in a sandbox, rather than being dumped in an institution, even though this little girl didnt come into existence through their choices regarding use of their own penises.

[Sclass]

This is clearly a lot more complex an issue than the shallow article. The averages shown in the article are about as misleading as showing the average income or net worth in the USA is $x. One number to describe this dataset, really?

What about the figure that half of all Americans cannot come up with $400 in a pinch? I think a lot of them are white. The ability to build wealth may not be a race issue alone.

There is undoubtedly racism out there. I’ve seen too much to stomach over my lifetime. Yes I stood by and ignored it because I decided I’d lose if I stepped up to defend people. Sadly it is real.

How it ultimately affects a generation is about as complicated as accumulating a net worth that can be used to FI at 3% SWR. You guys make it sound like building wealth is some kind of God given ability that everyone should have.

Most of the people around me cannot do it regardless of color.

[Campitor]

How it ultimately affects a generation is about as complicated as accumulating a net worth that can be used to FI at 3% SWR. You guys make it sound like building wealth is some kind of God given ability that everyone should have.

Most of the people around me cannot do it regardless of color.

Its not a given ability but it can be learned; doing nothing only assures zero results. And anything done repeatedly, with conscious deliberation, is improved including wealth generation, money savings, etc. Pooling resources is another method to at least help somebody climb out of the cesspool of poverty. I had Vietnamese neighbors who had at least 15 people living in one apartment so they could save money and buy a multi-unit home and open a small grocery store. I lived next to them for roughly 1 year and they manage to do it. Before I moved they had purchased a nearby house and opened their vegetable/variety store. Poor people move up the income ladder all the time despite horrible odds. This doesn't mean we should not be helping people or giving them aid. What I'm saying is that a lot of poor people have the ability to escape poverty but don't do so because they are ignorant of the resources available or they don't exercise discipline to save for a better future. Rich people are rich because they spend an inordinate amount of time finding ways to make money or keep their money in their hands: lessening tax burdens, using money more efficiently, etc. Rich people hone their money making/saving skills prodigiously and use system level thinking to generate money. It's these habits, skills, and knowledge that poor people need to get ahead - not hand outs with zero training on wealth strategies.

The argument I always hear is "most people can't do it" which means SOME can do it - so let everyone try and see who makes it out - ask them how they did it. Chances are, if they are from the same neighborhood and started in the same position in life, their behavior, choices, and knowledge aggregation can be copied in order to achieve similar success.

[BRUTE]

If whites said "I'm sorry" and gave each African American 377k would that solve black issues forever? 14 trillion (upper reparation estimate) divided by 37 million (US black population) = approximately 377k; 188k per African American would be the lower range of reparation paid. Could the US afford to pay 14 trillion or 7 trillion in reparations? I don't think so. So reparations is a pipe dream. And history in this context only serves to embitter and fuel the racial divide.

lol, 377k. realistically, any reparations are going to be $500 or maybe $2,000 per person. the money just isn't there. humans can't even pay out the other humans they've already promised more money (social security, medicare). how would they come up with an additional 7-14 trillion? hyperinflation?

in addition to bankrupting the country, this would then make all other humans hate black humans for ruining the economy. and if it's $500 per black human, black humans would resent the government for lowballing them.

[7Wannabe5]

I had Vietnamese neighbors who had at least 15 people living in one apartment so they could save money and buy a multi-unit home and open a small grocery store.

Was their landlord aware of this situation? Generally, occupation code is (number of bedrooms X 2) + 1. Other rules such as this example also apply depending on community,

A PMC is often more straight forward than other codes or rules. The Grand Rapids PMC* simply states the number of occupants allowed per the available square footage of the entire unit AND the square footage of each bedroom. In Grand Rapids, the current PMC ordinance (as of October 24, 2014) establishes the limits for occupants as follows:

Minimum bedroom size is 70 sq. ft. And, there must be at least 50 sq. ft. for each person in a bedroom, e.g. the bedroom would need 100 sq. ft. for two people.
The entire unit must have for:

1-2 occupants – 120 sq. ft. of living room area plus the minimum sq. ft. required for the bedroom(s) (There is no requirement for the size of the dining area.)

3-5 occupants – 120 sq. ft. of living room area plus an additional 80 sq. ft. for dining plus the minimum sq. ft. required for the bedroom(s).

6 or more occupants – 150 sq. ft. of living room area plus an additional 100 sq. ft. for dining plus the minimum sq. ft. required for the bedroom(s).

The reason why I make this point is that I agree that housing expense combined with housing discrimination and housing code is a huge barrier to acquiring savings. So, the funny thing is that recent immigrants who do not grok these rules have the same advantage as eccentric frugal people. For instance, I often shared a bedroom with my BF who earns well over 6 figures, and this bedroom was in a very modest suburban house which he shared with his friend who is worth over $70 million. This man adopted the daughter of his long-time African-American GF when she turned 18, and she recently "adopted" an African-American family of 6 whose house was condemned. She can afford to do this because her monthly allowance is over $20,000.

Today I was working with a multi-ethnic group of disadvantaged children with a young man and another middle-aged woman. The topic of ethnicity came up because the young man claimed that he couldn't help being sweaty running around with the kids because he was half Polish. So, I mentioned I was part Polish too. Then we determined that we were all part Irish, including the middle-aged woman who appeared to be part African-American. She said that her great-grandfather was a white plantation owner who fathered children with 6 different African-American women who worked for him. Almost every African-American person I know whose family has been in the United States for over 100 years has some European or Native American ancestors. An old boyfriend of mine was of African-American and Native American heritage. The mother of his first son was an African-American female body builder, so that son turned out to be 6'8" and played professional football. The mother of his second son was a short white woman, so that son looked vaguely Mediterranean, light olive skin, Native American type nose, mop of loose black curls on his head. My white mother-in-law had a child out-of-wedlock with a black lover in the 60s. She had to put him up for secret adoption, but he was adopted by a middle-class black family and turned out great, so my kids have 3 black cousins in addition to 3 cousins who are half-Filipino. But, my sister's Filipino husband also has one crazy Russian grandmother. Human beings are out-breeders. It is a scientific fact that we are a species that likes some strange, because hybrid-strength is not just theoretical. So, the idiots who think there is some sort of virtue in anything like racial purity are pretty much condemning their descendants to all sorts of inbred weakness, and maybe that will be punishment enough.

[OTCW]

Eventually (maybe a few thousand years?) people will all be the same shade of brown.

Then we can hate each other for something else I guess.

[Campitor]

Was their landlord aware of this situation?

Yes. He was a holocaust survivor who lost all his possessions and family to the Nazis except for 1 surviving brother. He was sympathetic to his tenants goal of trying to make a better life. They were very quiet neighbors. I didn't know there were so many living their until I had to go defrost pipes in their apartment - the kitchen wall wasn't insulated so the pipes were prone to freezing if the temps fell into the teens. The apartment was very clean and orderly.

I'll never forget this landlord - we actually became friends - he died a few years ago which makes me feel a bit sad when I think about it. He was a kind and generous man. We talked almost every day since he had a business next to the apartment building. He never talked much about the holocaust. I only found out because he had a serial number tattooed to his forearm and I asked him about it. He did tell me how he arrived in the US with nothing and couldn't get any work. He started selling fruits from a cart to make money and managed to work his way up until he actually became quite affluent; he lived frugally and was always giving things to his employees or tenants. He owned several businesses and apartment buildings.

I asked him how he managed to acquire so much wealth and property and with all seriousness he said "You want to be rich? Don't spend your money!"

[Campitor]

Eventually (maybe a few thousand years?) people will all be the same shade of brown.

Then we can hate each other for something else I guess.

Perhaps one day in the future we will learn to coexist and look past our difference. You don't have to dig deep to find people of the same color killing each other:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles#Late_1960s
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvadoran_Civil_War
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia%E2%8 ... _relations

[7Wannabe5]

@Campitor:

Interesting. Totally makes sense that a holocaust survivor would be cool with the Vietnamese crowd of tenants.

Sad, but true, that those who stand to profit from division, can so easily red shirt/blue shirt - white hat/ black hat us. IMO, one of the best models to follow is the manner in which the character of Lionel behaved in relationship to Archie Bunker. For instance, just smile and reply to some azzhat young Republican in your AP Chem class, "Yeah, you are right. A dumb blonde like me can't possibly compete." and then obliterate the curve on the next 3 exams, thereby sending his hope for perfect GPA on Ivy League applications down the toilet. (Bwah-ha-ha.) Then go back to spending your time on more interesting things.

[nestbuilder]

@7W5:

I see the results of the Lionel technique now hitting critical mass. Women/minorities in general have known they must not just show up and do the work, but be exceptional in order to compete. Education and hard-work are essential. I wonder how much of the present-day hand-wringing over the decline in cultural and economic status of white men is really just a response to the field of competition having suddenly grown and effectively getting left in the dust.

[BRUTE]

I only found out because he had a serial number tattooed to his forearm

yea that's kind of a giveaway isn't it.

[BRUTE]

I wonder how much of the present-day hand-wringing over the decline in cultural and economic status of white men is really just a response to the field of competition having suddenly grown and effectively getting left in the dust.

increased competition is probably a huge factor, but brute thinks that there is also a broken promise aspect to this. human females entered the workforce and started competing with human males. but the (implicit?) promise was that, in total, because more humans were working, humans would be better off.

there was a pretty qualitative difference in human standard of living between when the silent generation grew up and when they retired. nobody had a car, everybody had a car. nobody had a TV, everybody had a TV. blacks couldn't sit in the front of the bus, blacks can sit wherever they want. 12 humans lived in one room, 2 humans live in 1 room. meat once a week, meat every meal. that feels like it's worth something.

between 1950 and now, many of the "improvements" are either a parody of consumerism or pure decadence. twitter. 1 human lives in 4 rooms. the luxury of commuting in a luxury vehicle. McMansions. 800+ TV channels, but they all show mostly ads.

brute is quite sure that those stupid white male humans wouldn't be as upset if their "sacrifice" (=being outcompeted in the market) had ended hunger, poverty, crime, or anything else bad in the US. if all double-income families were doing well. if race and gender relations had improved. and if they weren't now blamed for the continued existence of all those things.

i.e. brute thinks it's not just spite, it's spite and cynicism after broken promises.

[Campitor]

I only found out because he had a serial number tattooed to his forearm

yea that's kind of a giveaway isn't it.

Agreed - he kept it hidden most of the time by wearing a suit jacket or long sleeves. I only saw it because he wore a short sleeve polo when the AC in his store broke down.

[Riggerjack]

We know that blacks are over represented in the justice system.

We know that blacks are over represented in poverty.

And we know the poor are over represented in the justice system.

It seems to me like how those ratios overlap could provide some insight. Does anyone have a source for numbers to play with? Is there a dataset that is publicly available for any of this?

[OTCW]

Net worth as a metric is probably given more importance on this particular board than it would just about anywhere else.

Employment status, income, home ownership, marital status, incarceration, education, etc are probably more indicative of how well off people of a particular race are.

Bottom line though, AAs are getting the economic shaft due to generations of institutionalized and personal racism no matter how you measure it.

[Campitor]

Bottom line though, AAs are getting the economic shaft due to generations of institutionalized and personal racism no matter how you measure it.

So lets see what the American Census data shows (table 1 page 13): https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr11-17.pdf

Only 9.9% of "White alone non-Hispanic" are below poverty while 25.8% of "Black Alone" are below the poverty line. So by percentage it looks like African Americans are getting screwed but lets look at the total numbers. 18,959,814 whites (non-Hispanic) are below the poverty line compared to 9,472,583 African Americans - that's a 2 to 1 ratio of poor whites to blacks. If you include all the "Whites" (Hispanic Whites included) that poverty total is 25,659,922 which is a 2.7 to 1 ratio.

So what does this tell us beyond what the raw numbers show? Could this be a case of conditional probability? I'm asking sincerely. Since there are more whites in the US, hence a larger portion of the electorate, they vote for candidates and issues that benefit them and are accurately represented in all levels of society because they represent 74% of the population. What if the reverse was true and Black were 74% of the population? Do you honestly think they would be under-represented in the USA in all levels of society?

Per the census there were 42,739,924 people living below poverty. Whites represent 60% of that number (44.4% for White non-Hispanic) and blacks represent 22.2%. Asians are only 4.4% of those living in poverty while being only 5.5% of the total population. I guess being Asian is better than being White or Black.

If there were 1000 people in the room, the numbers of people per ethnicity (percent of total population) would look like this:

• White alone - 743
• White alone, non-Hispanic - 643
• Black or African American alone - 123
• American Indian and Alaska Native alone in combination - 16
• Asian alone or in combination - 55
• Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander alone or in combination - 3
• Some Other Race alone - 51
• Hispanic origin - 161

Whites drown out everyone naturally. I don't see how this is racist when numbers and probability dictate a large representation of what is the current majority in the USA.

[BRUTE]

Whites drown out everyone naturally.

can brute quote this out of context? oh. oops. looks like he already did.