Race and Net Worth

[Jean]

I whish there were a financial tool to bet on topic getting locked.

[Jason]

Yeah ... I'm inclined to lock this thread down over xmas just in case ....

Can you hold off until I finalize what I hope becomes my annual “Subvervise Proto-Republican demagoguery and racial innuendo as found in Irving Berlin’s “White Christmass” post.

Thank you.

[jacob]

Sure, you have until 12/20. I don't want to take time off and come back to a veritable shitshow, like last year, again. So all better behave ... if nothing else, if this thread goes to downhill between xmas and new year, it's because the forum steering committee is taking time off to add five pounds of regrettable bodyfat, eating pizza and other goodies, but mostly pizza.

Also, viewtopic.php?f=20&t=9260

[thrifty++]

I can imagine it being much harder for black people generally to obtain economic security and or grow wealth than others in society.

I think many of the factors that determine economic security and wealth do not have anything to do with your decision making or actions and are related to things outside the control of an individual. I think the following makes it more likely you will do well economically: being white; being born in a western country; straight; absence of physical and mental disability; from an emotionally stable family; from a family that is at least middle class; having a high IQ; having a high EQ and being physically attractive. I think a black person with all of those characteristics obviously sans being white likely has a good chance of being economically successful. But for historical reasons there is probably also greater incidence of families beneath the middle class and being insecure.

There is very little that an individual can do to change any of the above features and some it is simply not possible to change. However some of those things are matters the natural world favours and some are things that society favours. Imagine how hard it would be to become successful if you possessed none of those features and how hard it is to fail if you possessed of all them.

[Jason]

Much appreciated. Have a good time.

[IlliniDave]

Can you hold off until I finalize what I hope becomes my annual “Subvervise Proto-Republican demagoguery and racial innuendo as found in Irving Berlin’s “White Christmass” post.

Now that Jingle Bells has been identified as yet another racist anthem, that manifesto probably merits its own thread.

Fittingly, perhaps, this comes from Boston

The song, however, has since “eluded its racialized past” and is “a prime example” of how some popular 19th century music’s “blackface and racist origins have been subtly and systematically removed from its history,” according to Hamill. It wasn’t until decades later that it became a Christmas song, much less the popular holiday anthem it is today. Upon the festive recitations of the song each season, there’s likely not much reflection upon its origins profiting off the racist caricatures of black people.

https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/ ... %3Atwitter

[Campitor]

My credential: Hispanic, born in South America, raised in the Northeast, victim of racial violence and bigotry. I've had beer bottles thrown at me by whites, been called spic, been held down by 2 white guys while a 3rd plays Rocky-hits-the-beef. But I've also been attacked by African Americans for being Latino, had knives pulled on me in middle school by African Americans demanding to have my obligatory Hispanic gold-cross and necklace I received on my 1st communion. And I've had my fellow Hispanics attack me for being too white (I'm a light skinned hispanic) - it's very surreal having an american born Latino tell a South American born Latino that he isn't "spanish" because he isn't dark skinned. And I also grew up very poor - neither parent had a high school degree.

All the racism I experienced, in my opinion, didn't have much of an effect on me because I didn't let it stop me from being me. The biggest advantage I had as a South American immigrant is a parent (did I mention I came from a single parent household?) that emphasized working really hard at anything you do. In South America there is no welfare, food stamps, government subsidies for most of the population - you have to hustle to stay alive. That work ethic gets passed along.

My biggest hurdle to success was never any white guy/gal but my fellow minorities. Do you know how hard it is to get ahead when your fellow minorities harass you, beat you, and call you an uncle tom for doing well in school or working hard at a job? I'd be Bill Gates level rich if I had a dollar for every Hispanic who said I was kissing the white man's ass for working hard, volunteering for difficult assignments (cough overtime cough), and getting promoted for adding value beyond what others were willing to provide. I think the biggest reason, beyond working super hard, that I'm successful is that I never cared about what other people think. Every time someone called me an Uncle-Tom it only made me more determined to be even more successful because living well is the best revenge. And when I say my fellow minorities harassed me, it was real harassment - threats of violence, sabotaging my work to make me look bad, accusing me of being a spy for management so others would hate me. It was truly the crabs in a barrel effect - they can't stand to see a fellow minority getting ahead - they feel threatened. I wasn't the only picked on guy - I had a buddy (African American) who shared the same work ethic - he was also harassed and ostracized.

I really wish I had an answer to the problem that originates out of the disgusting history of racism. But I know for sure that no solution will ever work when those who are offered a hand up don't accept it or let anyone else either.

[jacob]

@Campitor - I wonder whether there's a useful way to understand that experience by combining crab mentality with https://www.amazon.com/Why-Nations-Fail ... 0307719227 of extractive institutions ... (Note, I'm "doing research" for another goal, so feel free to ignore unless you have "something easy" ... Scandinavia is a good example of a culture that's widely considered to be doing well/best despite a prevailing crab mentality. This is a weird conundrum, so it triggered my physicist's mind. Perhaps it's because the Nordic countries aren't a minority within their own area.)

[thrifty++]

My credential: Hispanic, born in South America, raised in the Northeast, victim of racial violence and bigotry. I've had beer bottles thrown at me by whites, been called spic, been held down by 2 white guys while a 3rd plays Rocky-hits-the-beef. But I've also been attacked by African Americans for being Latino, had knives pulled on me in middle school by African Americans demanding to have my obligatory Hispanic gold-cross and necklace I received on my 1st communion. And I've had my fellow Hispanics attack me for being too white (I'm a light skinned hispanic) - it's very surreal having an american born Latino tell a South American born Latino that he isn't "spanish" because he isn't dark skinned. And I also grew up very poor - neither parent had a high school degree.

All the racism I experienced, in my opinion, didn't have much of an effect on me because I didn't let it stop me from being me.

Wow that is some heavy stuff. I have never witnessed that level of racism in real life before but then I guess I am less likely to. You are gutsy for not letting it impact you.

[Jason]

Now that Jingle Bells has been identified as yet another racist anthem, that manifesto probably merits its own thread.

Fittingly, perhaps, this comes from Boston

The song, however, has since “eluded its racialized past” and is “a prime example” of how some popular 19th century music’s “blackface and racist origins have been subtly and systematically removed from its history,” according to Hamill. It wasn’t until decades later that it became a Christmas song, much less the popular holiday anthem it is today. Upon the festive recitations of the song each season, there’s likely not much reflection upon its origins profiting off the racist caricatures of black people.

https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/ ... %3Atwitter

You know, not to toot my own horn on my prenatatural ability to detect the subservise nature of Christmas songs, but I've been saying this for years and nobody would believe me.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ru ... 232b691bd5

[Campitor]

Wow that is some heavy stuff. I have never witnessed that level of racism in real life before but then I guess I am less likely to. You are gutsy for not letting it impact you.

I'm not special nor am I gutsy. I just refused to play the victim or give anyone that kind of power over me or feel sorry for myself. To quote Eleanor Roosevelt: "No One Can Make You Feel Inferior Without Your Consent."

If I was forced to identify the biggest sin born out of racism it would be the sin of self pity. Self pity is a corrosive belief that cripples and makes minorities feel powerless. Self pity drives the narrative that relief can only be brought about by an outside agent. Deus Ex Machina is a rare occurrence in life - the only thing we can be absolutely certain of is the spirit of our own determination and the sacrifices we are willing to undergo to achieve a goal. Life offers no assurances except for the outcome that results from zero personal effort.

I understand that racism is a real thing. But ALL races have good and bad people - and I certainly believe that most of them are good - the bad people are the outliers - they are just more active and more vocal. Someone helps you fix a flat tire or push your car onto the road shoulder doesn't make news but burning crosses and welfare cheats are the click bait that keeps news corporations profitable. Don't believe the hype.

[Campitor]

@Jacob

Thanks for the book recommendation - I'll definitely pick up a copy.

[C40]

If Baltimore can have a "Don't anybody kill nobody" weekend*, we can have a "don't get in dirty arguments" week. Come on people, we can do it!!

*Ok, it didn't work out all that great for them (2 murders)... but we can do it.

[BRUTE]

Don't anybody kill nobody

sounds like a fatal double negative.

brute's fuse has become quite short on this topic. yes, racism. now what?

brute has become quite bored with appreciating and understanding and realizing and remembering and acknowledging. is there an interest in solving the problem? if not, brute has video games to play.

[Jason]

So let's just stop talking about history because a few are tired of the topic. Thank you for dropping by and letting us know of your ennui. God knows how compelling Brute and his video games are.

Just to go on record, the reason this thread is in jeopardy of being of locked is because a few posters who are tired of the topic as they are obviously, superlatively well versed in, have read every work on it and cannot possibly learn anything more about it, can't resist in letting the rest of us know that they are superlatively well versed in it, have read every work on it, and cannot possible learn anything more about it. It's like the seniors walking into the juniors and not only needing to display that they aced the course but feel that now that they mastered it, the class should stop being taught.

Funny, when I'm not interested in a topic, or feel I have nothing to add or its not moving me forward, I just ignore it instead of turning into a personal ring kissing ceremony.

You graduated, Good for you. But I don't think I need to tell you what the word is for people who have gotten their degree but would rather come back the next year and hang out in the fucking parking lot talking to who haven't gotten it yet. Suffice it say, you're opinions of yourselves and your erudition are not necessarily shared by all.

But please, come back and further the discussion with ad hominem references. That's what real scholars do. "

And to the mods, lock this shit or delete this post. I could care less. But if playing nice is just having to defer to those who have sat on the bar stool the longest, pack it in. Really. It's just another version of "seniority" that everyone here always rails against.

[IlliniDave]

There's a difference in condescension/disagreement expressed about a topic and condescension/disdain expressed towards other participants, and I think the latter is the more likely to result in a lock down* in just about any discussion forum. Awareness of history is advantageous when it is put to use looking forward (as well as often being interesting in its own right). When the conversation stops at lists of grievances and assigning blame for current problems to past history (which may even have some validity) and further transferring it forward in time to non-participants in that history, nobody wins.

*Perhaps with one topical exception here.

[jennypenny]

What iDave said is what I meant by play nice. We can disagree in a way that doesn't get too heated or personal. I learn a lot from these discussions.

Speaking of that, I realize I was wrong because I was doing the same thing in the sexual harassment thread. I was too focused on the (societal) problem and not enough on personal solutions, which is kind of the basis of ERE. While we talk about the bigger problems sometimes, the focus has always been on finding personal solutions to the FI problem. There's always the possibility that the personal solutions will scale up if they're designed so that they don't aggravate the bigger problem.

Looking at solutions, race definitely complicates the matter. Some including myself talked about women carrying a gun to protect themselves in the sexual harassment thread. But I'm a white woman. Would I recommend the same to a black woman? I'm not sure. It seems to me that one of the greatest threats to a black person's well-being is being caught up in the justice system. Is it worth it for a black woman to shoot someone to avoid being raped and risk being charged with a crime?

By the way, that's a wealth issue and not just a race issue. I remember being told when I was taking a self-defense class not to shoot anyone rich no matter what they were doing to me (unless I thought I was going to die) because I'd be the one who ended up in jail. (class taken in Philly, not Stepford)

[Jason]

This is nothing but some parachuting by the read it all, flown over it all crowd letting us know that they have read it all and flown over it all and that we should not be conducting the discussion unless it acknowledged their previous, infallible conclusions. Furthermore, opinions discussed herein were "politicized" which means the condescension was twofold: "Not only do I possess superior knowledge, have thought the issue out to its inevitable logical conclusion but I know that your sole purpose is merely to serve an agenda i.e. political, ego, etc."

It was nothing but a fucking flexing "bow to my board bullshit." Not that I can't tolerate that, but I need to see some fucking credentials before doing so, which quite honestly, I haven't seen in terms of nuance of argument, footnoting of sources, or irenicism in addressing other posters. Just a bunch of "We talked about this before and I'm the pre-eminent legitimizer of all ensuing discussions on said topic." I think the kids today call it bullying. I don't know.

[7Wannabe5]

The same is true in schools. Studies have shown that black students often receive harsher punishment for the same behavior. Maybe it's racism, maybe it's because the rate of these behaviors is higher in these schools and the amount of resources is lower so the principal and other staff just run out of patience and energy. It's not hard to imagine that being suspended or expelled from school isn't helpful to outcomes later in life.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/a ... ls/548084/

Hannah-Jones: I never talk about school inequality in terms of “diversity” because I think it’s a useless word. I think it’s a word that white people love. When I say “curated diversity,” it means white parents like a type of diversity so they’ll still be the majority and there won’t be too many black kids.

White Americans, in general, are willing to accept about the ratio of black Americans at large: 10 to 15 percent.

I think both of these are true. I would also note that, as usual, the lawyers are somewhat to blame. Teachers and administrators are to some extent personally liable for injuries suffered by children under their care. I can't safely break up a fight between 3 6th grade boys, even if I feel compassion for their circumstances, which in my experience on one occasion was that one was a war refugee from Yemen, one was a low income black kid, and one was a white kid who found his drug-addict mother dead. So, I have to scream for a male administrator to come help. Luckily, at the school where I taught, one of the male administrators was a 6'4" black man, and the other was a super-fit 6' white guy, both in their early 30s. Since I sometimes filled in for the school secretary in the office, I know that these men had to deal with a constant flow of emergencies or perceived emergencies. They had no choice except to adopt a fairly draconian suspension policy. In fact, when I requested that I please not be assigned above the 5th grade level, and then staffing shortages placed me again with these boys, the principal came in and told the class at the start of the day that anybody I had to send to the office for any reason would be immediately placed on 3 day suspension. It's like the difference between being on the front line as a medic and working at some Veteran's hospital back stateside.

As Hannah Jones mentions above, and Colin Woodard makes very clear in his "American Nations", the race problem in America is one of caste, not just class. The class mobility issues can be addressed in a manner that will effectively also directly help white members of the underclass. My suggestion for increasing class mobility, one that is being explored by the school board in the low-income district where I taught, would be focus on greatly expanded opportunities for vocational training and apprenticeship starting at very early age, and involving private enterprise in making the problem its own solution. My suggestion for decreasing perception of racial caste is anything that will increase acceptance or even applause for the expanded practice of inter-racial dating and marriage. Separate but equal does not work. The problem with reparations, IMO, is that it will tend towards drawing a bolder line just as this line is becoming increasingly fuzzy. This is a systems-theory level issue.


So, in accordance with systems theory, let's ask the opposite question. How would greater exposure to black Americans and black culture possibly benefit white Americans? Well, Black Americans are better at sports, disproportionately gifted in the arts (inclusive of many practical arts such as cooking and garden design), and they are sexier than white Americans (obvious when you consider the fact that almost every white American/British entertainer known for sexiness borrowed heavily from black culture.) It has been my experience that many black children who are remedial readers are very good at mathematics. This makes sense since math skills and music skills are known to be correlated, and it's difficult to overcome lack of early exposure to white standard English.

One of my musician sister's tirades is that white American children are early deprived of the experience of rhythm. We have very little poetry or soul in our uptight, busy-busy, rule-of-ruled-paper, petty hierarchical meritocracy. We have utterly abandoned our oral tradition, place our infants alone dark rooms in barred cribs to wail themselves to sleep, so that they can learn as early as possible the lesson that self-reliance is harsh reality, and stiff-upper-lip is mandatory. So, obviously, the world will be a better place when every culture conforms to this model. Odd though, when the topic of unnecessary early death comes up, nobody mentions that the suicide rate among American white men is almost twice that of black men, and the number of suicides overall is 3x as great as homicides, and on the increase vs. decrease.

If I as myself whether my DS29 would be more or less likely to commit suicide if he married a black woman, my answer would be less, but I can't provide any statistics or spread-sheet analysis to answer the "why?" Just gut-feeling or intuition, and perhaps some attempt to alleviate my maternal fear or guilt that perhaps I shouldn't have always attempted to distract him with a picture book or puzzle when he wanted to yell and run up and down the aisles on the city bus when he was 2. I clearly remember one time when the middle-aged black male bus driver observed his behavior and laughed and said to me "Your boy's got spirit!" So, whenever possible I try to return favor, engage in mutually beneficial cross-cultural trade, and maybe tell the single mom of a very spirited black boy, "Your child displays a gift for mathematics that he could potentially develop.", and I definitely say it to the boy himself.

Of course, my opinion that racism is idiotic on multiple levels, varying cultures should be appreciated, but not preserved like museum pieces, does not detract one iota from my post-feminist quite sexist perspective which informs me that virtually ALL homo sapien males of every possible skin tone are thugs and they should be sent out to the woods to chop at logs, or at least forced to do laps around a track for at least 1.5 hours every day if no productive use for their labor is available.

[suomalainen]

@Jason you're right; having someone drop into a thread merely to state their bored condescension about that topic is itself boring. But it takes two to get into a pissing match. Just as the bored crowd could move along and skip participating (baiting) in a thread, you can skip rising to take the bait. If they're really bored, they'll say so once and move along. If they keep coming back to bait, why not just ignore them? They are clearly just agitating for the sake of agitating.