Race and Net Worth

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
Campitor
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Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by Campitor »

thrifty++ wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:37 pm
Wow that is some heavy stuff. I have never witnessed that level of racism in real life before but then I guess I am less likely to. You are gutsy for not letting it impact you.
I'm not special nor am I gutsy. I just refused to play the victim or give anyone that kind of power over me or feel sorry for myself. To quote Eleanor Roosevelt: "No One Can Make You Feel Inferior Without Your Consent."

If I was forced to identify the biggest sin born out of racism it would be the sin of self pity. Self pity is a corrosive belief that cripples and makes minorities feel powerless. Self pity drives the narrative that relief can only be brought about by an outside agent. Deus Ex Machina is a rare occurrence in life - the only thing we can be absolutely certain of is the spirit of our own determination and the sacrifices we are willing to undergo to achieve a goal. Life offers no assurances except for the outcome that results from zero personal effort.

I understand that racism is a real thing. But ALL races have good and bad people - and I certainly believe that most of them are good - the bad people are the outliers - they are just more active and more vocal. Someone helps you fix a flat tire or push your car onto the road shoulder doesn't make news but burning crosses and welfare cheats are the click bait that keeps news corporations profitable. Don't believe the hype.

Campitor
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Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by Campitor »

@Jacob

Thanks for the book recommendation - I'll definitely pick up a copy.

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C40
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Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by C40 »

If Baltimore can have a "Don't anybody kill nobody" weekend*, we can have a "don't get in dirty arguments" week. Come on people, we can do it!!

*Ok, it didn't work out all that great for them (2 murders)... but we can do it.

BRUTE
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Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by BRUTE »

C40 wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:18 pm
Don't anybody kill nobody
sounds like a fatal double negative.

brute's fuse has become quite short on this topic. yes, racism. now what?

brute has become quite bored with appreciating and understanding and realizing and remembering and acknowledging. is there an interest in solving the problem? if not, brute has video games to play.

Jason

Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by Jason »

So let's just stop talking about history because a few are tired of the topic. Thank you for dropping by and letting us know of your ennui. God knows how compelling Brute and his video games are.

Just to go on record, the reason this thread is in jeopardy of being of locked is because a few posters who are tired of the topic as they are obviously, superlatively well versed in, have read every work on it and cannot possibly learn anything more about it, can't resist in letting the rest of us know that they are superlatively well versed in it, have read every work on it, and cannot possible learn anything more about it. It's like the seniors walking into the juniors and not only needing to display that they aced the course but feel that now that they mastered it, the class should stop being taught.

Funny, when I'm not interested in a topic, or feel I have nothing to add or its not moving me forward, I just ignore it instead of turning into a personal ring kissing ceremony.

You graduated, Good for you. But I don't think I need to tell you what the word is for people who have gotten their degree but would rather come back the next year and hang out in the fucking parking lot talking to who haven't gotten it yet. Suffice it say, you're opinions of yourselves and your erudition are not necessarily shared by all.

But please, come back and further the discussion with ad hominem references. That's what real scholars do. "

And to the mods, lock this shit or delete this post. I could care less. But if playing nice is just having to defer to those who have sat on the bar stool the longest, pack it in. Really. It's just another version of "seniority" that everyone here always rails against.

IlliniDave
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Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by IlliniDave »

There's a difference in condescension/disagreement expressed about a topic and condescension/disdain expressed towards other participants, and I think the latter is the more likely to result in a lock down* in just about any discussion forum. Awareness of history is advantageous when it is put to use looking forward (as well as often being interesting in its own right). When the conversation stops at lists of grievances and assigning blame for current problems to past history (which may even have some validity) and further transferring it forward in time to non-participants in that history, nobody wins.

*Perhaps with one topical exception here.

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jennypenny
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Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by jennypenny »

What iDave said is what I meant by play nice. We can disagree in a way that doesn't get too heated or personal. I learn a lot from these discussions.

Speaking of that, I realize I was wrong because I was doing the same thing in the sexual harassment thread. I was too focused on the (societal) problem and not enough on personal solutions, which is kind of the basis of ERE. While we talk about the bigger problems sometimes, the focus has always been on finding personal solutions to the FI problem. There's always the possibility that the personal solutions will scale up if they're designed so that they don't aggravate the bigger problem.

Looking at solutions, race definitely complicates the matter. Some including myself talked about women carrying a gun to protect themselves in the sexual harassment thread. But I'm a white woman. Would I recommend the same to a black woman? I'm not sure. It seems to me that one of the greatest threats to a black person's well-being is being caught up in the justice system. Is it worth it for a black woman to shoot someone to avoid being raped and risk being charged with a crime?

By the way, that's a wealth issue and not just a race issue. I remember being told when I was taking a self-defense class not to shoot anyone rich no matter what they were doing to me (unless I thought I was going to die) because I'd be the one who ended up in jail. (class taken in Philly, not Stepford)
Last edited by jennypenny on Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jason

Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by Jason »

This is nothing but some parachuting by the read it all, flown over it all crowd letting us know that they have read it all and flown over it all and that we should not be conducting the discussion unless it acknowledged their previous, infallible conclusions. Furthermore, opinions discussed herein were "politicized" which means the condescension was twofold: "Not only do I possess superior knowledge, have thought the issue out to its inevitable logical conclusion but I know that your sole purpose is merely to serve an agenda i.e. political, ego, etc."

It was nothing but a fucking flexing "bow to my board bullshit." Not that I can't tolerate that, but I need to see some fucking credentials before doing so, which quite honestly, I haven't seen in terms of nuance of argument, footnoting of sources, or irenicism in addressing other posters. Just a bunch of "We talked about this before and I'm the pre-eminent legitimizer of all ensuing discussions on said topic." I think the kids today call it bullying. I don't know.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Gilberto dP wrote:The same is true in schools. Studies have shown that black students often receive harsher punishment for the same behavior. Maybe it's racism, maybe it's because the rate of these behaviors is higher in these schools and the amount of resources is lower so the principal and other staff just run out of patience and energy. It's not hard to imagine that being suspended or expelled from school isn't helpful to outcomes later in life.
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/a ... ls/548084/
Hannah-Jones: I never talk about school inequality in terms of “diversity” because I think it’s a useless word. I think it’s a word that white people love. When I say “curated diversity,” it means white parents like a type of diversity so they’ll still be the majority and there won’t be too many black kids.

White Americans, in general, are willing to accept about the ratio of black Americans at large: 10 to 15 percent.
I think both of these are true. I would also note that, as usual, the lawyers are somewhat to blame. Teachers and administrators are to some extent personally liable for injuries suffered by children under their care. I can't safely break up a fight between 3 6th grade boys, even if I feel compassion for their circumstances, which in my experience on one occasion was that one was a war refugee from Yemen, one was a low income black kid, and one was a white kid who found his drug-addict mother dead. So, I have to scream for a male administrator to come help. Luckily, at the school where I taught, one of the male administrators was a 6'4" black man, and the other was a super-fit 6' white guy, both in their early 30s. Since I sometimes filled in for the school secretary in the office, I know that these men had to deal with a constant flow of emergencies or perceived emergencies. They had no choice except to adopt a fairly draconian suspension policy. In fact, when I requested that I please not be assigned above the 5th grade level, and then staffing shortages placed me again with these boys, the principal came in and told the class at the start of the day that anybody I had to send to the office for any reason would be immediately placed on 3 day suspension. It's like the difference between being on the front line as a medic and working at some Veteran's hospital back stateside.

As Hannah Jones mentions above, and Colin Woodard makes very clear in his "American Nations", the race problem in America is one of caste, not just class. The class mobility issues can be addressed in a manner that will effectively also directly help white members of the underclass. My suggestion for increasing class mobility, one that is being explored by the school board in the low-income district where I taught, would be focus on greatly expanded opportunities for vocational training and apprenticeship starting at very early age, and involving private enterprise in making the problem its own solution. My suggestion for decreasing perception of racial caste is anything that will increase acceptance or even applause for the expanded practice of inter-racial dating and marriage. Separate but equal does not work. The problem with reparations, IMO, is that it will tend towards drawing a bolder line just as this line is becoming increasingly fuzzy. This is a systems-theory level issue.


So, in accordance with systems theory, let's ask the opposite question. How would greater exposure to black Americans and black culture possibly benefit white Americans? Well, Black Americans are better at sports, disproportionately gifted in the arts (inclusive of many practical arts such as cooking and garden design), and they are sexier than white Americans (obvious when you consider the fact that almost every white American/British entertainer known for sexiness borrowed heavily from black culture.) It has been my experience that many black children who are remedial readers are very good at mathematics. This makes sense since math skills and music skills are known to be correlated, and it's difficult to overcome lack of early exposure to white standard English.

One of my musician sister's tirades is that white American children are early deprived of the experience of rhythm. We have very little poetry or soul in our uptight, busy-busy, rule-of-ruled-paper, petty hierarchical meritocracy. We have utterly abandoned our oral tradition, place our infants alone dark rooms in barred cribs to wail themselves to sleep, so that they can learn as early as possible the lesson that self-reliance is harsh reality, and stiff-upper-lip is mandatory. So, obviously, the world will be a better place when every culture conforms to this model. Odd though, when the topic of unnecessary early death comes up, nobody mentions that the suicide rate among American white men is almost twice that of black men, and the number of suicides overall is 3x as great as homicides, and on the increase vs. decrease.

If I as myself whether my DS29 would be more or less likely to commit suicide if he married a black woman, my answer would be less, but I can't provide any statistics or spread-sheet analysis to answer the "why?" Just gut-feeling or intuition, and perhaps some attempt to alleviate my maternal fear or guilt that perhaps I shouldn't have always attempted to distract him with a picture book or puzzle when he wanted to yell and run up and down the aisles on the city bus when he was 2. I clearly remember one time when the middle-aged black male bus driver observed his behavior and laughed and said to me "Your boy's got spirit!" So, whenever possible I try to return favor, engage in mutually beneficial cross-cultural trade, and maybe tell the single mom of a very spirited black boy, "Your child displays a gift for mathematics that he could potentially develop.", and I definitely say it to the boy himself.

Of course, my opinion that racism is idiotic on multiple levels, varying cultures should be appreciated, but not preserved like museum pieces, does not detract one iota from my post-feminist quite sexist perspective which informs me that virtually ALL homo sapien males of every possible skin tone are thugs and they should be sent out to the woods to chop at logs, or at least forced to do laps around a track for at least 1.5 hours every day if no productive use for their labor is available.

suomalainen
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Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by suomalainen »

@Jason you're right; having someone drop into a thread merely to state their bored condescension about that topic is itself boring. But it takes two to get into a pissing match. Just as the bored crowd could move along and skip participating (baiting) in a thread, you can skip rising to take the bait. If they're really bored, they'll say so once and move along. If they keep coming back to bait, why not just ignore them? They are clearly just agitating for the sake of agitating.

Farm_or
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Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by Farm_or »

@Campitor - thanks for sharing your story. That illustrates a topic that my personal experience can attest to.

People require a culture of Hope. Without hope, there's no reason for effort.

The minority group that I grew up with were native Americans. Violence, alcoholism, drug and child abuse were all too commonplace. I had friends my age who were on both sides of the struggle.

For my friends whose parents were middle class, they were frowned upon for acting white. Anything associated with success: regular meals, Levi's, Nikes, a well kept home, a functional car was associated with white. Success was associated with the ultimate evil - white.

It was the seventies before the "agent" system was so corrupted and ineffective that a new direction would take place: integration. So my child hood years were early into native Americans kids attending public schools. There were a lot of problems.

That was decades ago. Today things are much improved. You can drive through the Rez and it is clean and well kept, far higher standard for what used to be a ghetto. There's a big shiny casino in the middle of things. There's a pride in the people that is well deserved and it shows.

A culture of Hope. Redirecting white hate. Something to look forward too. The past is as ugly as you want to make it. Something to do. A pride in work. Something to love. Your people and heritage.

suomalainen
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Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by suomalainen »

@farm_or Re: hope, consider this article: https://orionmagazine.org/article/beyond-hope/ which is written about environmental issues, but resonated with me more on a psychological level.
Frankly, I don’t have much hope. But I think that’s a good thing. Hope is what keeps us chained to the system, the conglomerate of people and ideas and ideals that is causing the destruction of the Earth.

To start, there is the false hope that suddenly somehow the system may inexplicably change. Or technology will save us. Or the Great Mother. Or beings from Alpha Centauri. Or Jesus Christ. Or Santa Claus. All of these false hopes lead to inaction, or at least to ineffectiveness. One reason my mother stayed with my abusive father was that there were no battered women’s shelters in the ’50s and ’60s, but another was her false hope that he would change. False hopes bind us to unlivable situations, and blind us to real possibilities.
....
If only we get a Democrat in the White House, things will be okay. If only we pass this or that piece of legislation, things will be okay. If only we defeat this or that piece of legislation, things will be okay. Nonsense. Things will not be okay. They are already not okay, and they’re getting worse. Rapidly.
...
Hope is, in fact, a curse, a bane. I say this not only because of the lovely Buddhist saying “Hope and fear chase each other’s tails,” not only because hope leads us away from the present, away from who and where we are right now and toward some imaginary future state. I say this because of what hope is.

More or less all of us yammer on more or less endlessly about hope. You wouldn’t believe — or maybe you would — how many magazine editors have asked me to write about the apocalypse, then enjoined me to leave readers with a sense of hope. But what, precisely, is hope? At a talk I gave last spring, someone asked me to define it. I turned the question back on the audience, and here’s the definition we all came up with: hope is a longing for a future condition over which you have no agency; it means you are essentially powerless.
...
When you give up on hope, something even better happens than it not killing you, which is that in some sense it does kill you. You die. And there’s a wonderful thing about being dead, which is that they — those in power — cannot really touch you anymore. Not through promises, not through threats, not through violence itself. Once you’re dead in this way, you can still sing, you can still dance, you can still make love, you can still fight like hell — you can still live because you are still alive, more alive in fact than ever before. You come to realize that when hope died, the you who died with the hope was not you, but was the you who depended on those who exploit you, the you who believed that those who exploit you will somehow stop on their own, the you who believed in the mythologies propagated by those who exploit you in order to facilitate that exploitation. The socially constructed you died. The civilized you died. The manufactured, fabricated, stamped, molded you died. The victim died.

And who is left when that you dies? You are left. Animal you. Naked you. Vulnerable (and invulnerable) you. Mortal you. Survivor you. The you who thinks not what the culture taught you to think but what you think. The you who feels not what the culture taught you to feel but what you feel. The you who is not who the culture taught you to be but who you are. The you who can say yes, the you who can say no. The you who is a part of the land where you live. The you who will fight (or not) to defend your family. The you who will fight (or not) to defend those you love. The you who will fight (or not) to defend the land upon which your life and the lives of those you love depends. The you whose morality is not based on what you have been taught by the culture that is killing the planet, killing you, but on your own animal feelings of love and connection to your family, your friends, your landbase — not to your family as self-identified civilized beings but as animals who require a landbase, animals who are being killed by chemicals, animals who have been formed and deformed to fit the needs of the culture.

When you give up on hope — when you are dead in this way, and by so being are really alive — you make yourself no longer vulnerable to the cooption of rationality and fear that Nazis inflicted on Jews and others, that abusers like my father inflict on their victims, that the dominant culture inflicts on all of us. Or is it rather the case that these exploiters frame physical, social, and emotional circumstances such that victims perceive themselves as having no choice but to inflict this cooption on themselves?

But when you give up on hope, this exploiter/victim relationship is broken. You become like the Jews who participated in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

When you give up on hope, you turn away from fear.

And when you quit relying on hope, and instead begin to protect the people, things, and places you love, you become very dangerous indeed to those in power.

In case you’re wondering, that’s a very good thing.

Scott 2
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Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by Scott 2 »

When individuals propose solutions for problems like this, I always wonder about their experience with the target populations. I pass through diverse areas, but my interactions are limited to the conductor on a train, a cashier at the store, etc.

I do not have perspective. I imagine the term white savior complex was coined to describe people with my background meddling in the affairs of less fortunate minorities.

My best idea is to offer kindness and support to those who are succeeding despite the disadvantages, hoping they later help solve the problem. They understand what it is like, what those they grew up with value, what steps might be effective, etc.

Riggerjack
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Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by Riggerjack »

(@) Riggerjack

I am truly sorry that this blog not only falls short of meeting your rigorous intellectual criteria, but fails to reference your previous and surely deeply enlightening posts on said topic, and is ultimately remiss in acknowledging that your feelings are the normative basis for a deeply complex sociological and political discussion that so obviously has failed to draw any attention from the rest of the board.
Uh. Sorry. :oops: Maybe I shouldn't post from the dentist's chair.

There's nothing wrong with the thread, how you presented it or anything else. I'll come back when I can say the same thing about my state of mind.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Scott 2:

Would you also describe the white Quakers who helped build the underground railroad as suffering from "white savior complex?" It's like the difference between being a stranger, a tourist, a traveler or an ex-pat when it comes to level of involvement in different cultures. If you don't go, you won't know, but it's a bit much to regard lack of action due to admission of ignorance as virtue.

If somebody could make a valid argument that it would be counter-productive for affluent white suburbanites to directly volunteer their time, venture into neighborhoods they avoid, and engage in tutoring, coaching, counseling, mentoring, and other such activities, please proceed. In my neck of the woods, what I mostly see them doing is a) Nothing, b) talking about the problem among themselves at champagne event on the topic of Greening of Detroit.

I am happy that Jason started this thread, because lately I have been drifting into a bit of despair, due to fact that my own sister was arrested for being mentally ill while living in a low-income district, and somebody stole my garden shovel, and my white uber-uber-liberal lover's wife referred to my black lover as "the gardener", and I learned from a source that I trust that there are almost 1/3 of a million people who are members of multi-generational underclass in the realm of my project. BUT just because something is very difficult or very complex, does not mean it is not worth attempting!!!

Scott 2
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Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by Scott 2 »

Someone physically involved with helping the affected populations has perspective. I am thinking of someone like me insisting "the individual should do X" or"the policy should be Y". I don't know, and it's misleading at best to insist I do.

Someone fully engaged in the culture and providing help is offering value to disadvantaged individuals, at the very least. The type of work you are doing, building people up, instead of offering a handout that potentially creates dependency, seems especially worthwhile.

It is not something I foresee myself doing, for a variety of reasons. Selfish preoccupation with my own personal financial and physical security probably being top.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Scott 2:

Gotcha. Sorry if I came off defensive. I am generally pretty fully engaged in acting/spending my life energy in alignment with my own self-aware self-interest too. I just "shop different" than most of my peers. IMO, being racist/classist is very much like being a person who would never shop at a thrift store or read a book that wasn't a current best seller or eat an unfamiliar fruit. Within Dullsville city limits is not where I want to live. MMV.

BRUTE
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Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by BRUTE »

Jason wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:00 am
So let's just stop talking about history because a few are tired of the topic. Thank you for dropping by and letting us know of your ennui. God knows how compelling Brute and his video games are.
or, instead of talking, how about doing something?

brute actually thinks racism is a problem and would love to solve it and have blacks enjoy the miracles of capitalism. but it seems that humans enjoy the talking phase a lot, and never graduate to the doing phase.

suomalainen
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Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by suomalainen »

I think people do do things. But everyone chooses what they want to do. You can speak up / defend if you see racist speech or behavior. You can vote / be involved in politics for legislative solutions. You can become involved in non-governmental organizations whose missions align with your thoughts - touching education, job training, charity, etc.

There’s only so much doing on the interwebs where bloviating is the doing.

nestbuilder
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Re: Race and Net Worth

Post by nestbuilder »

or, instead of talking, how about doing something?

brute actually thinks racism is a problem and would love to solve it and have blacks enjoy the miracles of capitalism. but it seems that humans enjoy the talking phase a lot, and never graduate to the doing phase.
There are similar fault lines in this thread as developed in the sexual misconduct one. A strong desire to come up with solutions/fixes and the observation that this subject seems to bring up no small amount annoyance of some of the participants. There is a ready frustration about tiresome "talk" on the subject. I am not sure where this comes from but it may be worth exploring to better understand some of the barriers to real progress.

I would argue that in the United States we have not even come to consensus on the undeniable original sins oofur country: slavery/Jim Crow and the genocide of Native Americans. How can we move forward to deal with "race and net worth" when we do not have consensus on the historical context? We are a long way from agreeing on a historical truth(just listen to any debate about Confederate statues or better yet, visit a southern plantation or Charleston or xxx and try to find any reference to slaves or the slave trade.) Likewise, bike the back roads and witness the number of roadside historical signs referencing "hostile Indians" throughout the West that are still kept up and on display or farms that are celebrating 3rd generation status that were magically all founded in 1880s. We have some glaring blind spots and you just can't fix something and move forward if you don't first come to truth about and reconcile for the past. We are in many ways more comfortable talking about the sins of others - for example, the Holocaust - than we are in facing our own.

I live close to the Canadian border so between travel and radio, am exposed to a relatively large amount of news and culture from the land of pickle chips. Obviously the difference between our two current leaders could not be more stark, but it is actually the continued national dialogue around truth and reconciliation for their nation's sins of the past that boldly stands out. While the U.S. may dialogue and debate about the present, we do not seem to have the stomach to deal with the past.

Two recent examples from Canada that spoke volumes:

apology to indigenous residential school survivors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NESUCfZksg

apology to lgbtq2(notice the "2" in reference to "two-spirited," an indigenous concept):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRp7C-cMyo0

In medicine the first rule for minimizing litigation is to acknowledge and apologize for a mistake. That really is what most people want and need to move forward. Heck, I won't let my 5 year-old nephew continue to play after behaving badly until he has acknowledged and apologized to his little sister or whoever.

I will say a change I have noticed in my community the past few years is that many public events now open with an acknowledgement of the peoples whose ancestral lands we are currently in and that those indigenous peoples, many who live on a reservation across the bay, now take the lead in many community actions/gatherings/marches. They are very small, but significant steps to making the truth a part of the community conscience.

Locked