sexual misconduct

[George the original one]

Next, stop letting shit slide when men do or say seemingly harmless, but clearly derogatory crap to women.

It is tiring. Seriously, people who say derogatory crap, whether about women or religions or sexual orientation or racial heritage are incessant unthinking fools and you CAN'T CHANGE THEIR HABITS. Yes, it reminds other people not to be publically stupid or to not do it around you, but they're not the ones being idiots (or worse). The bad ones just run off at the mouth FOREVER. Eventually it is like responding to internet trolls. The worst ones will wear the label (sexist, racist, criminal, etc.) with pride because people are perverse that way.

[BRUTE]

Can we stop w/ the "white knight" talk? Seems like a pretty pointless digression/minutia.. the Muffin Folks are _not_ calling for a return of Chivalry

one "Muffin Person" was calling for the men on this forum to take some other men to the woodshed. so there's that.

[JamesR]

My wife said she never felt the fear of rape that women feel in the US as a teenage girl (but maybe that was just because she was a teenage girl and not aware?). In China there's an execution hearing for capital crimes, such as rape, kidnap, human trafficking, etc, if you're guilty they take the offender out back and shoot them in the head afterwards.

Prostitution is also common and affordable. Significantly more so than US.

Harsh penalties to kill off the stupid bandits, and cheaper access to sex to satisfy the intelligent bandits?

Not that I'm really advocating for prostitution, I'd rather have a more open minded sexually positive culture/society - something that 7wannabe5 has mentioned elsewhere before I believe.

[7Wannabe5]

You go to a third world country and the whole place is a garbage dump, even a lot of the places where there are actually trash cans around. And yet somehow in the West most of the trash makes it into the can. People can learn, especially if there are more trash cans.

Very true, but it is also true that the individual/victim who is "trying hard not to lose her shit" is likely not the best representative of society in general to be making the decision about penalty for littering or even what share of limited fund of public resources should be spent on more trash cans. I say this even though, or perhaps because, I have cartoon-like notions of violent retribution in my own mind if/when I am not attempting to be fair-minded and higher-ground rational.

@nestbuilder:

I don't want to veer too far off topic, but I feel compelled to speak the common sexism/racism analogy you mentioned. One of the reasons why I didn't report the assault I suffered to legal authorities was "white guilt." Rational analysis of rape statistics reveal that rape, like other dumb bandit crimes such as stealing copper out of street lights, is more prevalent in underclass populations. In my region, for variety of well-known reasons, there is a very large overlap between "African-American" and "current or previous member of underclass population." Two former lovers towards whom I still feel a great deal of affection were African-American men who bootstrapped themselves out of the underclass, and so was the man who assaulted me. So, I actually did the sort of blame-yourself sort of thing that women often do in these situations at the level of wondering if he attacked me because I somehow communicated condescension.

Recently I was riding on the train from the affluent realm to affluent realm through the much less affluent realm where I lived/gardened for the last few years. A very attractive African-American photo-journalist in his 30s/40s was riding in the same car. I knew this because I overheard his conversation with train conductor who was also an African-American man of similar age. They were talking about the rapid pace of gentrification in the downtown area, and the train conductor said "It's very nice, but they are pushing us out." Then just a few days later I heard about white women on bicycles being kidnapped and raped by African-American members of the underclass on the direct path I have bicycled myself between one area of gentrification (where there are private security and litter cleaning services) and the area where I garden that is relatively safe because highly, very aggressively policed. So, there is this part of me that is hurt, angry and frustrated reflecting back on my assault and the limitations on my freedom of travel, but there is another part of me that is looking at this from the level of systems analysis and the distribution of limited resources, and realizing that this is a very complex problem and some simple solutions such as "Directly address incidents of usage of verbiage indicative of sexism/racism" are only easy, likely to be effective, or affordable from the perspective of a place of already higher organization, privilege, or resources. IOW, the only solution to pollution is dilution, but if stupid bandit behavior is to be regarded as a form of pollution, the upstream dam fund is not likely to truly help very much. IOW, any amount of energy that is wasted on members of the upper-middle-class bickering among themselves about manners should be diverted to something like actually, physically, going into the city or out to some blighted rural area with the fantastic resource base that is you and tutoring a young female member of the underclass in mathematics or coaching a young male member of the underclass in some sport. And, I would note that I am talking to myself here as much as anybody else.

[The Old Man]

Others on this forum have argued that there is not the proper incentive to be the kind of good guy that speaks up but I think they are just plain wrong. We are not only sexual creatures, but social ones as well.

Why should I be a white knight exercising chivalrous virtues? You don't care about men's issues (rape against men is more common when prisons are taken into account, plus there are false rape accusations to deal with), so why should I care about women whining?

[Riggerjack]

First, I would like to apologize for the creepy stories. They weren't comfortable to tell, I doubt they were comfortable to read. I've been trying to build context for what I'm trying to say.

First, I plead ignorance about Wienstein and the rest of the current Hollywood scandal. Because JP mentioned him her politics thread, I did a google search, read a summary, gave up halfway thru, and thought "well what did they expect?"

INSERT SOUND OF RECORD SCRATCH HERE

As I said, I'm overly familiar with this subject, and my sympathies have always been engaged on the side of the victim, and here is this fcuking ugly thought in my head.

Because it has always been an ugly thought, the noises the excuse makers make. The jury that doesn't convict because "dressed like that, what did she expect?" The ones who don't care say such careless things. When did I become this guy?!?

So that caused quite a bit of introspection, enough to try to work some things out here.

What I read was mainly coercive sex, "have sex with me, or you don't get the part.". Maybe there's more, but that seemed the gist, and I just don't have the stomach to go digging for further dirt. I don't want to know.

But that's bad enough, that my sympathies should be engaged, I should have more outrage. But I don't. Don't get me wrong, try him and hang him by the testicles if convicted.

Maybe the problem is that it's actresses? That if anyone one the planet is motivated and capable of a false accusation, it would be actresses? No, even discounting for the reliability of actresses, with this many stories, I have no doubt that some of them are true, and that there is much worse out there.

And I think that is it. A combination of there is much worse out there, and that The Business of Hollywood is famous for this shit. I mean for generations. The business of gossip about the horrors and whores of Hollywood predate my father. Is there anyone, anywhere, interested in going to play in the land of make believe, who isn't aware of this? If so, how?

Did you ever watch shark week, with the shark scientist, standing in knee deep water, with dozens of bull sharks around him, talking about how misunderstood these peaceful creatures are, when one turns, and bites off his calf, on camera? I'm sure that hurt. I'm sure the recovery was painful, and that there is trauma to this day. BUT WHAT DID HE EXPECT? This is how I feel about this scandal.

I have advised people not to try to compete against hobbyists and retirees for a living. They will work for a pittance for the love, or because they don't need more. So don't compete with them, it's a losing proposition.

The same principle applies to Hollywood. It's well known that the casting couch is there for a purpose. That people will whore out their children to play in that arena. So I find it hard to find sympathy for people who go swimming in blood warm waters with sharks. People who watched as their friends were turned from swimmers to chum, and still didn't get out, Now they've been bit, and are screaming on the beach, and my only reaction is "What did they expect?".

Which is a horrible thing to think. Somehow, some way, I have changed. I still feel sympathy, and I am against all of this. The world would be a better place without rape, coercion, misconduct, and aggressive pick up artists. But in a world with only so many fucks to give, I find I just don't have enough to go around. At this point, I guess I'm doing emotional triage. Yes, this is all bad, but you have to focus on fixing what you can.

So, light a bonfire, have a party, and burn some celebrities. Have fun with it. But I can't find any optimism that anything will change because of it. Hollywood is still Hollywood, and is full of those with power, and those who will do anything for it. In 10 years, nobody will remember this in any way, and the stories can be turned into headlines, all over again. Maybe we can turn Hollywood into a filter to remove the worst offenders, but that doesn't match up with what I know of human nature.

And speaking of human nature, I have had to reorder my thoughts about those messed up old white men who said things like "what'd she expect?" I always thought of them as outgroup, men too hardwired to tolerate abuse of women. But now I wonder. Maybe they knew of all the evil in the world, how hard it is to protect everyone, and were doing their own triage. Given that there isn't enough protection to go around, how much should be wasted on those who choose to swim with sharks?

Honestly, I don't know. But there are some things I do know.

If we net off a section of the beach to make a safe zone, relatively free of sharks, swimmers will congregate in the center, and along the nets, according to their risk tolerance/appeal. This current scandal is about "where to draw the line". Which translates to where to put the nets in my analogy. Where the nets are hardly matters. Wherever they are, there will be a congregation of swimmers in the center, and then there will be the ones who can only find their thrills just inside, just outside, or literally on top of the net, opening up an avenue for sharks. This is just human nature.

I also know that men are men, so there will be some form of courtship. What is and isn't acceptable courtship behavior will change with times, because this is a preference issue. Yes, it would be nice if women had a pendant they could wear, signaling that she "isn't interested", that came with some kind of social enforcement. But then the whole of male attention will be focused on a smaller group of women, and not wearing that pendant will have costs go up, until we are Italy. And worse, not wearing the pendant will then be seen as a sign of promiscuity, until one day there's a rape trial, and when the prosecutor fails, some jury member will come out and say "she was in public, without a pendant, what did she expect?"

And...the cycle can repeat.

[Riggerjack]

I appreciate JP for initiating this thread given her respected standing in this community. As this community - at least the frequent forum posters - appears to be dominated by men, I can't say I am surprised by how quickly the thread was directed toward attempts to explain male psychology and biology, accounts of being blue-balled and/or given mixed messages, the cost/benefit of bystander males not speaking up, and my favorite, that women just need to assert themselves more when confronted by creeps. The greatest concern seems to be how the current rise of public accounts and shaming will impact interactions between the sexes especially with regards to how men's behavior will be perceived and whether there will be negative consequences for them. Whether or not intended, these tangents sure diminish the OP's original statement and demonstrate a lack of interest in exploring/understanding the perspective of women and the reasons this watershed is happening right now.

Wow. Great post.

that women just need to assert themselves more when confronted by creeps.

I hope you got more from what I wrote than that. If not, I need to go back and rewrite it.

[Riggerjack]

Why should I be a white knight exercising chivalrous virtues? You don't care about men's issues (rape against men is more common when prisons are taken into account, plus there are false rape accusations to deal with), so why should I care about women whining?

Well, mainly because the society we live in is the aggregate of our actions. It really is sad watching old men troll, and doing it so badly.

[Riggerjack]

My friend keeps knives with her and has vowed that in the next instance of assault, someone is going to die - either her or the attacker. She also gives off a vibe that she is trying hard not to lose her shit a lot of the time.

Right or not, there is no way in hell she would respond favorably to the direction of this discussion. At this stage personally and culturally I think there is too much hurt. If people don't want to hear our reasonable explanations and suggestions, what are we going to do? Is that the end of our obligation? I don't think it is the end of mine, even if I have not done anything wrong.

Yeah, that happens. If you can, get her to some group therapy. It helps. Also, as I said in a previous post, people new to guns tend to think of them as tokens of power. This can be a good thing for a young woman trying find hers, again. But don't hit on her at the range.

That being said, I'm not recommending she daily carry. That is a whole other can of worms. But when the house creaks in the middle of the night, it is good to know you have the right tool to deal with an intruder. Anxiety is a Bitch.

[jacob]

Oh crikey ...

There certainly is a communication issue [in this thread], but I don't think this is the end of the world---or at least that there's a way to work around it and that's better than complaining about it.

In dealing with communication101, even the stereotypical example that (It's not about the nail) is a better "theory of mind" that seems to err less than not assuming a gender effect at all or giving up in frustration because the response wasn't what one wanted. I posted this link above. I also posted another skit about the tale of two brains, which points out---while the mixed audience nods and laughs knowingly---the cross-talking between "offering/wanting a solution" and "wanting/offering to listen".

I'm sure some have a more sophisticated understanding than what comedy reveals, but many also have less insight.

I kinda began to suspect something like this [solution vs acknowledgment] communications gap a few pages back: Women pointing out a problem expecting men to listen and acknowledge them, but men immediately jumping into solution mode and offering (for the most part) their best analysis and solution to the problem. And [...] being oblivious to that dichotomy before jumping in and out according to one's natural impulses. Am I onto something? Could it really be this simple?

Consider, that this forum in particular is for a large part composed of people who are unusually motivated when it comes to deep analysis on the strategic level and problem solving that demands individual agency ... and perhaps by extension not very good at or even blind to the desire for sympathy at the tactical level, especially not when it requires "all of us together". Just see any other subject here, journals, budgets, dieting, ... the solution/sympathy ratio is off the boards.

However, as long as one presumes that most respond under the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_humanity (this is probably the harder one(*), but see vids above) & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity and just ignore posts that don't seem to follow these principles, then this thread should be somewhat insightful/helpful.

(*) If you wanna get supertechnical on the MBTI, then the INTJ functional stack has emotions at the tertiary level (Fi) where it primarily serves to inform/guide the causes that the dominant Ni/Te solution module is then put in charge of executing. IOW, INTJs will not display emotions, for lack of a better word, outwardly except in rare cases (there's no Fe in the stack, so loss of Te-containment looks metaphorically somewhat like a catastrophic foundry failure). Emotions don't have any executive function [for the INTJ] but rather serve as an internal motivator in that a sufficiently developed Fi will drive the INTJ towards causes to work on (e.g. social change, world domination, etc.), whereas an underdeveloped Fi results in taking things personally and being defensive and bitter about the state of the world. Usually, Fi development begins rather late for INTJs---after Ni/Te for its own sake gets boring. Middle age or later.

[7Wannabe5]

If we net off a section of the beach to make a safe zone, relatively free of sharks, swimmers will congregate in the center, and along the nets, according to their risk tolerance/appeal. This current scandal is about "where to draw the line". Which translates to where to put the nets in my analogy. Where the nets are hardly matters. Wherever they are, there will be a congregation of swimmers in the center, and then there will be the ones who can only find their thrills just inside, just outside, or literally on top of the net, opening up an avenue for sharks. This is just human nature.

Yes, but we are talking about humans and humans, not humans and sharks. There are species in which some of the females will transform into a male when there is a shortage of males in the population. According to systems theory, as evidenced by the likely eventual collapse of anything the conservative mass in the middle regards as likely to be safe harbor or investment, human beings are highly adaptable omnivores that will feed on anything that has grown fat and lazy under sheltered skies, as well as the naive,weak and the reckless. If you don't believe me, just go ask any of the 30 million* dead buffalo.

OTOH, I think what is becoming obvious from what you wrote, and the course of this discussion in general, is that we need to have (at least) Rape1 and Rape2 flows on our systems diagram. For instance, the way J.Bozo (I can't even type his real name because he is so powerful he might strike me dead from his realm far, far above the cloud storage of the internet) recently "raped" me by not honoring contract to pay proceeds from liquidation of my rare book inventory within time frame clearly designated would be in category of "Rape2" along with all the other powerful celebrity and politician and other people who think they are beyond touch or reproach "rapes." The "Rape1" flow would be all the stupid bandit rapes and "rapes" committed by individuals who don't have enough to lose to worry about risk. Obviously, actual violent rape would rarely be committed by category 2 "rapists" because they are not so besotted with the oxygen-high of their own power structure to think they can get away with that sort of thing without severe penalty.

@jacob:

No need to fret or apologize. Quite obvious this is a forum conducted in the quadrant of adult "masculine" energy. Goes along with the topic. According to old school wisdom, "conservation of resources" is the provenance of the adult masculine. Freedom is the provenance of the juvenile masculine. That's why in old-fashioned setting romantic novels females have to bind their breasts and disguise themselves in male clothing if they want to go off on an adventure. I hope nobody takes this in the wrong way, I mean it as compliment, but prior to reading some of the posts in this thread where some of the INTJ female forum members somewhat described what they really look like, I was picturing them all looking like some variation on Miss Fisher from the Miss Fisher mysteries or Amelia Earhart.



*True number. Saddening.

[CS]

@7wannabe5

The thing with the buffalo, yes, makes me want to banish people from existence.

I agree with you on the social costs. There are benefits to living in a society, verses living alone in the woods. One of the benefits is that women may talk to you, or even more. The flip side of benefits is responsibilities. One responsibility is to stand up to bullies, and unfairnesses. I personally would banish any person (but especially males) from my life who would see a woman (edit: anybody. Women just tend to be the socially accepted target) being abused and do nothing about it. Someone on this thread mentioned 'no one talks about rape'. They actually implied there were no rapes, which may or may not be true... what is true is that no one talks about it, probably on the off chance some other person will have the courage to say something/do something about it.

You clearly have more patience than I. At some point, dealing with this thread was a black hole, especially when the social conditioning is so strong that you are doing an uphill battle not only against the male perspective, but the women too (especially older women). I read somewhere that Millennial women are fronting this new battle. I believe it.

[rref]

.

[ZAFCorrection]

@rref:

Fortunately, I think talking is a large component of the solution.

Also, I am confused about the implied negativity surrounding moralizing. Using an only slightly loose definition, it is one of the primary activities of this community. The fact that it is so successfully done is why I come here.

[7Wannabe5]

@CS:

My very own baby doll DD26 (Millennial) is an XNTJ (tough angel), and since I spent one of my previous lives adjudicating battles between her and my DS29 INTP (my own dear little wired-monkey boy, but bit of stoic-style shithead at times), this is not entirely new territory for me.

So, I am going to say to you what I would say to her which is that if you set your personal barriers so high, forward and rigid that they don't allow for the reality of the imperfection of other humans, you will find yourself continuously disappointed and ultimately alone. OTOH, I would definitely caution her not to err on the side of mimicking her mother either The ideal is construction of strong, yet flexible boundaries, as close as possible to the fine line of self-aware self-care. IOW, don't expect anybody else to be able to help/take care of you until/unless you are doing everything you possibly can to take the very best possible care of yourself. And/or with a different MBTI daughter, I might repeat what my own Rosie-The-Riveter-Hot-Little-Number of an ESTP grandmother said to me when she found me leafing through a copy of Playgirl at 14, "Baby, those boys, they are alright (laughing), but you take care of you."

[Campitor]

I've been following this thread closely. Women being abused is somewhat personal for me. I grew up in an extended family where my female relatives outnumbered my male relatives almost 3 to 1. I frequently witnessed the cat calling, the attempted groping, the intimidation that my female relatives endured. Harassment hits especially hard when it's your mother or sister. As I grew older and became stronger, I took on the mantle of Mr Woodshed. I had no problem taking guys for a visit and educating them on the fine art of polite interaction. The problem is that no perp goes willingly to the woodshed so the means of coercion have to be very hostile, and in my experience, roughly 10% require physical incentives. It's never pretty and if my recollection doesn't fail me, letting Mr. Woodshed loose seemed to frighten women more than the harassment I was addressing. And sadly a few of my cousins became more risk tolerant when I accompanied them. They engaged in behavior they would have avoided otherwise if I wasn't around.

There is a high toll to being Mr. Woodshed. Once you start getting physical and aggressive consistently, it becomes easier to do . And as you get older, stronger, and better at fighting, the negative repercussions of putting fist to face rises exponentially. I was never under the illusion that I was Jason Bourne or James Bond which infused me with fear while fighting. Fighting enveloped in fear, coupled with righteous indignation, is a corrosive brew that brings out a very dark shadow that inhabits every person; it's a void that is easy to get lost in. Once the fighting and the screaming and pushing were over, I was left feeling drained and recriminated myself a lot for taking things too far. After one particular incident which I don't care to discuss, I vowed to bury Mr. Woodshed and focused instead on conflict avoidance/resolution. I'm a lot happier for it. So when you ask someone to be Mr. Woodshed, please be aware that you may be opening a door where everyone loses.

@7 and the other women of this thread. I feel for you all - I truly do. It makes me sad and angry when I hear about the evil you endured or the harassment you endured with no means of remediation or any recompense. Most men are good men but don't know what to do when things turn ugly - most men don't know how to be efficient or effective with their violence or how to deescalate a confrontation. So the cost of white-knighting, a.k.a becoming Mr. Woodshed, can come with a very high cost to themselves, the person they are protecting, or the guy lying on the ground who can now sue you or press charges - especially if you issued a call to action: "he groped me - kick his ass!"

I agree that we are humans and not sharks. But make no mistake, we all come with an internal program that houses that shark subroutine. Humans have been killing each other since the beginning of time. Most of humanity has equipped better subroutines and don't engage in that behavior. But there will always be some men, and women, who prefer being a shark to being human.

I hope women continue to put the spotlight on people like Weinstein and make them pay in court for what they did and most likely continue to do. And in my opinion, any company that requires a contract that stipulates an escalating cost to sexual abuse should lose their operating licence. Miramax was complicit in creating an atmosphere that allowed Weinstein to rape women - they should pay too. Companies will stop tolerating this behavior when it hits them in the pocketbook directly and consistently.

[Riggerjack]

. And in my opinion, any company that requires a contract that stipulates an escalating cost to sexual abuse should lose their operating licence.

Wait. What?

[Campitor]

. And in my opinion, any company that requires a contract that stipulates an escalating cost to sexual abuse should lose their operating licence.

Wait. What?

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... es/542838/

The Weinstein Company’s board has said that the allegations of sexual assault and harassment came as “an utter surprise” to its directors. “Any suggestion that the Board had knowledge of this conduct is false,” the board said in a statement late Tuesday. That statement was attributed to the board’s four remaining directors: Bob Weinstein, Lance Maerov, Richard Koenigsberg, and Tarak Ben Ammar. Four other directors have stepped down already: the film executive Tim Sarnoff, the publishing heir Dirk Ziff, and the hedge-fund managers Paul Tudor Jones and Marc Lasry.

Just hours after the board professed ignorance, however, The New York Times reported that according to Weinstein’s onetime lawyer, the directors were informed of at least three confidential settlements with women. One of the remaining board members, Maerov, told the Times that he knew about multiple settlements but had thought they were being used to conceal consensual affairs. The Times also reported that an outside attorney reviewed Weinstein’s personnel file in 2015, and that the board renewed Weinstein’s contract after the attorney assured the directors that there were no pending claims against him.

Neither Weinstein nor the company has disclosed the terms of his contract, but the website TMZ reported on Thursday that the contract explicitly addressed the possibility of future misconduct claims against the producer. According to TMZ, Weinstein promised to reimburse the company for any settlements or judgments arising out of his misconduct and to make an additional payment to the company for each instance. The contract also added that the company would not fire Weinstein for misconduct as long as he made the requisite payments, according to the TMZ report.

These revelations—if true—suggest that former and current members of the Weinstein Company’s board could find themselves in legal jeopardy—either for failing to respond to warning signs of Weinstein’s misconduct or for consciously allowing his behavior to continue.

[BRUTE]

wow

[saving-10-years]

@Campitor, Its great to shine a bright light on these practices and make life more difficult for those that knowingly shield predators. The light shone on non-disclosure's is also good thing (part of the fall out from this) e.g. http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 16716.html. 19 years ago (when this happened) the climate was very different for making these allegations stick, so I understand from this woman's account why an NDA was the best option for her. Maybe she could have acted as a 'white knight'/whistleblower? But would this have had any impact at that time? Realistically I think not. The consequences to the whistle blower would have been more extreme than they are today - which is why people who did not speak then are now. Interesting that 1998 was also the year that the Monica Lewinsky scandal broke.

@riggerjack I have found your posts here really interesting. Helping me understand things about myself -particularly in terms of seeking a quiet life nowadays. Thanks.

@cs not sure whether you have any older women friends?

social conditioning is so strong that you are doing an uphill battle not only against the male perspective, but the women too (especially older women).

You might find you learn a lot about their perspective if you talk to them. Not here but IRL. My female friendship group ranges from 30s to 80s. The experiences of these older women and their perspectives are quite eye-opening.

@7w5 re, your Amelia Earhart comment. I would have loved to look like that. It would have matched the inner tom boy. I was more The Sun Page 3 girl* but with specs, unisex clothing and no makeup.

* In my day in my working class environment this was a compliment. As was the assumption you would have no problems finding a guy to marry and support you. The Benny Hill years ... (so glad these are gone).