Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
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Jean
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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by Jean »

That's why i proposed an other solution than women offering more sex.

baska
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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by baska »

Shush @GandK! gangsta jacob can be triggered by use of political loaded word. What if he arive here to close this hilarious thread?!

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Ego
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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by Ego »

baska wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:16 pm
Shush @GandK! gangsta jacob can be triggered by use of political loaded word. What if he arive here to close this hilarious thread?!
I was just thinking about fixing some problems on my website, problems that pale in comparison to running a forum. I got a good mental grasp of the work involved then said, meh, and decided to put it off.

Then I came back here, saw this post and thought to myself, Jacob could decide to say meh too.

I hope not.

BRUTE
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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by BRUTE »

Jean wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:01 pm
social niches for celibates with some prestige associated.
like physics?

oh, with prestige associated. never mind.

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Jean
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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by Jean »

Like being w monk.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Okay, I read Jacob's post on rules for threads in "Eternal Disputes" and I am very much attempting to be in alignment here. I would note for the record that I would describe myself as something like a Classical Green Libertarian with a serious streak of Sesame Street Socialism. My parents were both Independents. My younger sisters and my adult children are very Progressive. My BF is Green Republican. My permaculture partner (former polyamour) is an African-American options trader who admires Joseph P. Kennedy and Zig Ziglar. My recent second marriage was Islamic contract with a Persian American man whose teenage daughters were the victims of an assault (inclusive of hijab being ripped off the head of one their more conservative friends) by African-American girls in a park in one of the most civilized small cities in the United States. The last few years I have been teaching in a very low income school district which includes students who speak 36 different languages. On any given day you might find me sharing coffee and conversation about some terrible new bureaucratic rule allowing no holidays of any kind to be celebrated in pre-school or the terrible hazardous materials dump located just 2 miles from the school with an African-American woman in her 70s and a Yemenese-American woman in her 20s after the 3 of us co-operated in managing to get a whole room full of multi-ethnic 4 year old children quieted down for their nap-time. Later that day I might be commiserating with the 50-something year old conservative white male gym teacher about applying anti-bullying policy to 6th grade boys who otherwise run wild in the streets playing cricket with old boards and making forts out of dumpsters or shooting balls into bent-rim baskets on cracked black-top littered with discarded drug paraphernalia. My writing style can be rather provocative, but I am DEFINITELY NOT trying to be divisive. I am attempting to apply my own very small share of human intelligence to finding a solution. The only political position I would ever accept would be to be appointed Librarian General with the power to impose long, liberal-varied reading lists upon other humans. This thread also meets Jacob's criteria of some relationship to the topic of ERE, because the first book I quoted in my initial post, "The Systems View of Life: A Unifying Vision" encompasses and transcends ERE from the perspective of the last 30 years of research in the realm of the science of living systems. Everybody who participates in this forum should read this book, and also every other book referenced in this book, but I am afraid we all might be dead in our bunkers before any of us will find the time to complete this task :cry:

Smashter
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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by Smashter »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:46 am
That said, you have to admit that there is some kernel of truth to my sex inhibits violence theory. Otherwise, why would old school football coaches tell their players not to masturbate too much before the big game?
I believed this all through high school and then into my first year of college (D1 Basketball player). I didn't do anything sexual for days, sometimes weeks, leading up to a game.

Halfway through my Freshman year, I had a wet dream the night before a game. I was worried that I'd have no energy and mad that my subconscious had betrayed me.

Then I went out and played my best game of the season. From then on I stopped caring, and life was much more simple.

Later, I read stuff like this (https://greatist.com/fitness/sex-and-sp ... n-big-game) and felt a bit silly for blindly following a rule just because Muhammad Ali did it.

Campitor
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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by Campitor »

...Like bonobos and chimps, we are the randy descendants of hypersexual ancestors

...We'll show that human beings evolved in intimate groups where almost everything was shared-food, shelter, protection, child care, even sexual pleasure. We don't argue that human beings are natural-born Marxist hippies. Nor do we hold that romantic love was unknown or unimportant in prehistoric communities. But we'll demonstrate that contemporary culture misrepresents the link between love and sex. With and without love, a casual sexuality was the norm for our prehistoric ancestors.
Understanding human nature and behavior in prehistoric times can help pinpoint unconscious emotional traits and cognitive biases but I think it's unwise to use it as a guide or justification for present and future behavior and/or pair bonding. Some people are better and monogamy and prefer it while others are polyamorous and thrive under its paradigm - both systems can be justified as normal and healthy within their own present day circumstances (cultural and environmental).

But in my humble opinion humanity needs to stop trying to shoehorn evolutionary driven behavior and customs into modern day practice. Instead we should be thinking about the future and the behaviors and customs needed to get us there. For example, humans were a lot more violent in the past and lived in much smaller communities - neither are optimal behavior in today's world nor is our violent history used to justify any current behavior. Humanity is at the cusp of either being a blip in cosmic history or a space fairing enlightened species. One day this planet will die when our sun starts to expand because it's hydrogen has converted to helium - so we are guaranteed extinction unless we find a way to cooperate, live peacefully, and colonize the outer planets as a spring board to the stars beyond - and that's if we don't kill ourselves off first via suboptimal behaviors that were blindly embraced because we may have acted a certain way in our evolutionary past.
Last edited by Campitor on Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

peanut wrote:Whether it was exactly that they couldn't get laid or not idk, but the major issue there clearly had to do with frustrations around the opposite sex. I'd wager the pattern is there in similar incidents but often overlaid with political window-dressing.

I have a friend in Turkey who told me revenge porn is all the rage as is taking secret upskirt videos on the street. From the private to public realm, a repressive culture around sexuality directly leads to violations if not outright violence against women.
I agree. Another example would be that when my Persian-American ex was a teenager in 1970s Iran, he had to escort his teenage sisters in public because they wore Western dress, and other men would behave as though this gave them license to approach or even fondle them aggressively. The Shah's regime attempt to make hijab illegal followed by the reactionary rule that made it mandatory is a very obvious example of politics being played out in the realm of female body as symbol.

Part of what I mean by "ownership of sexuality" is stepping forward as sexual actor, not just object or subject that is acted upon or not acted upon. Instead of a vigilant focus on 'Mine. No trespassing!", a more open exploration of what women want and desire. For example, why is it still the case that there is almost always a picture of a sexy woman on the front of Maxim AND Cosmopolitan? I think, especially in my peer group, women are rejecting this, centering themselves on their own competencies, but then not seeking anything on the market for themselves. IOW, tossing their own sexuality into the basket along with any desire to be treated like an object or validated by the "masculine gaze." Sallie Tisdale, in "Talk Dirty to Me: An Intimate Philosophy of Sex" and Naomi Wolf in "Promiscuities: The Secret Struggle for Womanhood" made an excellent start at addressing these issues.

GandK wrote:And call me picky, but marriage and morality aside, I need far more than a penis and a good cause.)
lol- Ditto. Let's talk about that. Marriage, morality, support during child-raising years, security, and sentiment put aside, what do we need or want from men moving forward?

I know that I am being a bit ridiculous assigning the problem to sex alone. You agreed with my post elsewhere in which I described the problem more broadly as something like a shortage of free feminine energy in our society because everybody is focused on independence and achievement. I am reading a novel set in North Korea, and I was struck by the use of "comfort woman" as euphemism for government condoned prostitute. It made me think about my friend who was a GFE (girlfriend experience escort) and how pathetic it seemed to me that some men wanted to pay a woman to provide girlfriend behaviors in addition to providing them with sex. It also caused me to reflect on my own experiences while dating. It is kind of stunning how many affluent, intelligent, attractive, basically decent men there are out there who crave feminine energy or "comfort" in their lives and simply can not find it in the current climate. Add the elderly, the incapacitated, children, refugees to the system, and any woman (or a man in his warm, relaxed, patient, present-not-striving feminine energy) who is not currently spending all of her time/energy striving towards personal goals/security/achievement/status, could find virtually endless needful work to do simply by providing the sort of support that was previously provided by women who were not employed outside of the home and providing service/labor/simple-presence that was not included in the GDP. Humans vibe off of other humans, and when we are all at stress level 7 on average, more of us are going to land on stress level 10 with more frequency. The woven web is pulled taut and brittle, and the eggs crack as they land in the basket.

Anyways, I will exempt you from draft to service in my ComfortCorps due to fact that you are already currently fully engaged in service in your own home. However, if you wish to volunteer, and seek exclusion from sexual duties on basis of religion, I would like to see an INFJ like you in the role of Aspiration Journal Therapist . You will be placed in a classroom with a small group of Antifa/Neo-nazi youth, and you will assist and praise them as they creates journals detailing their life aspirations that are not violent. You might also have to teach them some ballroom dance skills prior to the mixer with my post-feminist sexually-empowered girl corps.

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GandK
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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by GandK »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:50 pm
Anyways, I will exempt you from draft to service in my ComfortCorps due to fact that you are already currently fully engaged in service in your own home. However, if you wish to volunteer, and seek exclusion from sexual duties on basis of religion, I would like to see an INFJ like you in the role of Aspiration Journal Therapist . You will be placed in a classroom with a small group of Antifa/Neo-nazi youth, and you will assist and praise them as they creates journals detailing their life aspirations that are not violent. You might also have to teach them some ballroom dance skills prior to the mixer with my post-feminist sexually-empowered girl corps.
Change the dancing to the Tango and I will gleefully enlist. 8-)

7Wannabe5
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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Jean: I agree that legalization of prostitution is long overdue.I shared house-space with a former sex worker and one of my platonic male friends is engaged to a sex worker (obviously they will have an open marriage.) One thing that drove both of them a bit crazy was how the social system creates the need for their services, but then penalizes them for providing them. Terrible analogy, but it would be kind of like making it illegal to pick up trash and bottle returns in a public park. One of my friend's regular clients was a man who weighed 400 lbs. Another was a very nice, not terribly attractive, older man whose wife hadn't wanted to have sex with him in over 20 years. Another was an attractive recently-divorced man in his 30s, who was terribly busy opening a restaurant, simultaneous with joint custody of two young children. She also had a young BF who was sort of a hippie-artisan type. She was the kind of person who would always hand you a slice of her orange if she peeled it in your presence. She told me that men didn't really pay for the sex, more like the ability to hold something pretty for a bit of time.

@Smashter: Interesting link. I don't agree with everything Ian Kerner communicates in his books, but I definitely agree that there is a correlation between healthy sexual activity and confidence and self-esteem. Testosterone generally has a bright, energizing effect, and there are a lot of behavioral ways to influence average levels.
Campitor wrote:But in my humble opinion humanity needs to stop trying to shoehorn evolutionary driven behavior and customs into modern day practice. Instead we should be thinking about the future and the behaviors and customs needed to get us there. For example, humans were a lot more violent in the past and lived in much smaller communities - neither are optimal behavior in today's world nor is our violent history used to justify any current behavior. Humanity is at the cusp of either being a blip in cosmic history or a space fairing enlightened species. One day this planet will die when our sun starts to expand because it's hydrogen has converted to helium - so we are guaranteed extinction unless we find a way to cooperate, live peacefully, and colonize the outer planets as a spring board to the starts beyond - and that's if we don't kill ourselves off first via suboptimal behaviors that were blindly embraced because we may have acted a certain way in our evolutionary past.
I agree. By analogy, I don't think the observation that humans are omnivorous as a species should be used for any purpose beyond arguing that eating meat can't exactly be categorized as a pathology. I am too dim-witted to be able to express the concept in full, but the systems view of life makes it clear that structure determines behavior, but structure is also continually maintained and altered through cognition of the environment. Our behavior as individuals or as a species moving forward will be determined by our current structure, inclusive of all the contingent events of our history, NOT some previous structural snap-shot. We can't undo our inherent tendencies towards violence, but we also can't undo all sorts of contingent butterfly-wing factors, such as the unknown effect of margarine consumption at puberty, that define our current structure which determines our current behavior.

The best I can say it is the best we can do if we are trying to alter any of our behaviors (because NOT entirely determined by clockwork universe) is something like "Don't go into the donut store if you don't plan on eating a donut. Don't even drive down the road to the donut store if you don't plan on eating a donut. ", but this problem is much more complex than my addiction to pastry.

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Ego
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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by Ego »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:50 pm
It made me think about my friend who was a GFE (girlfriend experience escort) and how pathetic it seemed to me that some men wanted to pay a woman to provide girlfriend behaviors in addition to providing them with sex. It also caused me to reflect on my own experiences while dating. It is kind of stunning how many affluent, intelligent, attractive, basically decent men there are out there who crave feminine energy or "comfort" in their lives and simply can not find it in the current climate.
I think this is the crux of the issue. Why is it that so many affluent men resort to this? I have to admit, I don't know anyone who does this type of thing and admits it. I know a few who I would guess probably do, but they'd never admit it.

The thing I don't understand is why it is the women who need to change their ways? I'm not a feminist, but why would women need to change because these guys somehow scare away the feminine energy in their lives and are now needy? Maybe the guys need to change?

There were plenty of women in the senior apartment complex Soylent Towers I used to manage who were traded in for younger models with better features. I can think of two who used to talk about how their exes got dumped right after the divorce and how they now lived in similar circumstances.

I don't know, maybe both men and women need to learn the importance of sticking it out through thick and thin?

7Wannabe5
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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Ego: I have an odd perspective on this matter because I have been in the role of the older female and the younger female, but when I was the older female I was actually younger than when I was the younger female. (I would also note that this was never in a situation where I was accessory to adultery with man in monogamous contract. You and I may disagree on some things, but we are likely in alignment in our value of fidelity to contract while within contract. ) My perspective is also somewhat odd because I was the one who wasn't getting laid in my marriage, which is more often a plight suffered by men, but more frequently suffered by women than is commonly assumed. So, I probably sympathize with men who find themselves in similar situations more than most women.

I think the problem is systemic. I don't necessarily think that women need to change more than men need to change, but I am a woman so I can only assume my share of personal responsibility as a woman. If I feel the urge to say "Man up!", I am going to tell myself "Girl up!" first.

According to Dr. Laura's horribly reductionist/biased book which is however based on kernel of truth, what husbands want is sex, dinner, admiration, attractive partner, clean/comfortable home. Admiration being the most important of these with a bullet. I have met many recently divorced, or otherwise new partner seeking, men who were getting none, or maybe just one, of these things in their marriage. For instance, one of my recent polyamours was married to a woman who was entirely focused on her career as mortgage broker. She had also involved her husband in a major home renovation project. She would send him text messages consisting of To Do lists such as "Call the contractor. Pick up the tiles. Take my mother to her hair salon appt. " while he was at work. He would run these errands, and finally get home, to a house nobody had cleaned in the midst of renovation of a kitchen in which nobody often bothered to actually cook a meal, and see that his 21 year old unemployed stepson hadn't even bothered to take out the trash. So, he would take out the trash and take his dog for a walk. His wife had also let her health and appearance suffer as she focused on career. She was no longer physically fit enough to even join him on a leisurely bike ride. She decided to retire from having a sex life with little consideration for whether that was also her husband's preference. He was so very, very unhappy with his life when I met him even though anybody who ever met him in a casual context would have thought he was one of the luckiest, most-privileged members of our society.

This is just one example of so many stories I have heard from the men I have dated and the men who were in my marriage therapy group. The bitter tone that I hear when I read some of the articles written by some young single men struck me as likely coming from similar causes or flaws in our current system. The situation makes some people more sad or depressed, and some people more anxious, and other people more bitter/angry, but that is more a matter of individual temperament when put under stress.

I am attempting to push forward towards a post-feminist solution because I don't believe that forcing anybody back into restrictive roles under restrictive rules will prove out, but it is true that Americans on average were happiest in 1958. Is it the case that we simply can't afford freedom AND comfort, or are we just not intelligent enough to figure it out?

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GandK
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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by GandK »

I think part of that problem is the paradigm that relationships are for one's use. And to the extent that one treats humans and human interactions like means to an end, one can generally expect the same treatment in return. I don't doubt or discount the tales of woe you heard from men whose wives had "let themselves go," but IME when a woman is being cherished and valued as opposed to simply being leveraged for the meeting of wants and needs, she tends to put her best (and barest) foot forward.

ETA: People tend to become utilitarian and demanding in marriage and long term partnerships in a way they'd never dream of being with, say, a best friend. We spend time with friends because we enjoy their company, and are glad to show up whenever they need us, generally with nothing smiles and generosity and gratitude. We still say please and thank you with friends. We take personal responsibility for our own needs, sexual or otherwise. No one's thighs ever look too fat for friendship. We still remember how to have a good time. There's very little drama. We cut each other slack. We respect each other's time... I could go on and on.
Last edited by GandK on Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ego
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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by Ego »

7W, okay.... I understand what you're saying. The first thing that comes to mind is that couples don't go to sleep one night as blissful newlyweds and wake up the next day suddenly miserable. There are many small steps along the way toward a disintegrating relationship. Each step requires both to participate (or abdicate) in the disintegration.

One person wants more sex while the other wants more cleanliness or kindness or pitching in with the kids or......

...if you try sometimes, you might find....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7leQB_Oe_k

7Wannabe5
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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@GandK:

I agree that cherish and respect are mutually reinforcing positive behaviors within a relationship. However, there is a level on which it is impossible to cherish or respect somebody who doesn't cherish or respect themselves. For instance, there was a couple I knew which consisted of 2 people I really liked as individuals. The husband was a seriously good egg, had at one point been my boss at work, and he was still madly in love with his wife. His wife was a very attractive, fun person who was in my book group and frequently hiked for exercise with me. Their marriage was sex-starved and they were both unhappy with the situation. When I talked to her about it, she revealed that she suffered from severe body loathing and inability to ever drop the To Do list running in her brain. So, in the middle of sex with her husband who adored her, she would be thinking about her fat thighs and whether or not she had remembered to schedule a dental appointment.

I also agree with what you wrote about friendship vs. marriage, but would note that the critical difference is that friendships are based on entirely open contracts. If somebody doesn't behave in the manner we believe a friend should behave, the relationship is easily or even unconsciously brought to an end. If a contract with a spouse clearly requires not having sex with other people and obligation to meet joint expenses and de facto requires many other things such as expectation that he or she would accompany you to New Year's Party or comfort you when grieving or not leave you at the hospital by yourself with appendicitis when you are 6 months pregnant :( (I know, I know, I should have left him then, or even earlier...but the kids.), you aren't left even as free to take care of your own needs yourself as if you were single.

@Ego:

I don't disagree with what you are saying either. Your use of abdicate being very insightful. One thing I learned about contracts is that they entail two obligations on both parties, the responsibility to fulfill your end of the bargain, and the responsibility to enforce fulfillment of the other end of the bargain. No use bitching if you are too weak to enforce. I was actually granted "mea culpa" by my divorce support group because I dropped my resistance, met all of my ex's remotely reasonable terms, and then clearly stated "The terms for continuation of this marriage are regular sex, regular social dates, and engaged partnership in some mutual projects." and he refused these terms. I would not sign a contract stating that I would stick it out no matter what, because I will enforce terms with divorce again if necessary. I have been on average much happier, more free and more comfortable, since my divorce. Zero regrets.

Anyways, that's why I don't think locking people down to decisions or contracts is the solution. I know so many lovely people who worked very hard at their marriages and didn't succeed. It takes two to tango, but you can't play fetch with a dead dog.

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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by BRUTE »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:50 pm
It is kind of stunning how many affluent, intelligent, attractive, basically decent men there are out there who crave feminine energy or "comfort" in their lives and simply can not find it in the current climate.
who says they cannot find it? maybe this is simply the better of the 2 alternatives to them?

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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@BRUTE:

My perspective is based on my personal experience interacting with men on the dating market, within marriage/divorce support groups, and in my greater social circle. By analogy, it's kind of like thinking it might be difficult to find a baby to adopt, and then being stunned when you walk into an overcrowded orphanage. Or thinking it might take 3 months to get a new job, then being flooded with offers as soon as you post your resume. I'm not even taking men who are relatively content "to not be shopping" into the equation. Although, of course, there would also likely be those who are "no longer seeking", but are not content, just like on the job market.

My concern is that some new systemic factors that are creating this "seller's market" are not being explored or revealed, and discontent will lead to one or another obvious old school solution, which would be either killing off competitors (other men)or imposing restrictive regulations/tariffs/alternate-opportunity-costs on "sellers"/females.

IOW, my experience on the dating market as a middle-aged, only moderately attractive female (think Cabbage Patch Doll with wrinkles), in recent years is that almost every man I date wants me to be his next new girlfriend or engage in some sort of significant relationship. It's almost the opposite of when I was a girl. Even if you do f*ck them, they do not flee. And it's not even like they are necessarily all that besotted, more like they have shopped the market a bit and rationally determined that I am the best deal they are likely to get. So, I have to ask what in the hell is going on with all my female peers who should be my competitors? And, why are men who should be dating females my daughter's age hitting on me? !

One of the chapters in "Freakonomics" explains mathematically how the practice of celibacy contributes to the spread of venereal disease within a community. I don't understand why there is this tendency for men to blame females who are promiscuous, rather than females who are celibate, for the fact that they don't have the benefits of a girlfriend. It makes no sense beyond the fact that promiscuous women are more visible on the market. So, I am suggesting polyamory as a sort of moderating practice as opposed to serial monogamy, or what is meant by the phrase "serial dating" which I have heard more than one man say with bitter tone as they describe the practice they have observed in their female peers. Another thing they often say with bitter tone is that the women they have dated "just want to have fun." Like he wants to lock Cyndi Lauper into the kitchen of his grim divorced bachelor apartment and make her wash his socks, and I'll be sitting across the restaurant table from him wondering whether I seem like somebody who wants to have fun or not, and then he'll say something like "You seem like a good woman." and I will know that I am looking or behaving like somebody who does not want to have very much fun, but that is not true.

BRUTE
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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by BRUTE »

crosspost from the ointment-thread:
Now imagine your girl's pleasant surprise when she finds out you're not actually a futureless loser, but an uber responsible provider who knows how to fix her bike, car, pc, toilet, and can build her some furniture.
gee, where can brute sign up?

brute thinks it's pretty simple: human relationships are a function of environment, and romance is an excuse made up to justify them. in the current environment, there is only very limited benefit, and huge cost, associated with long term relationships.

humans are coming apart as a "society" (as defined by previous-war's definition) because they can. there is no longer any external pressure to keep them together.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Crime, Sex, Politics : Systems Analysis

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@BRUTE: I don't completely disagree, but do you think there are "natural" winners and losers in the new paradigm, or are the "losers" just losing because they haven't kept up with the paradigm? IOW, are long-term-relationships like manufacturing jobs? Is the skill set becoming as irrelevant?

I can readily think of some circumstances in which LTR becomes positive option. For instance, pretty clear to me why Harry Browne changed his mind and threw down for another marriage. For an aging guy with plenty of money, the desire to have sex without a condom with a female young enough to be able to take care of him when he becomes decrepit before she becomes decrepit is a good deal, even worth the risk of loss due to divorce. I have to always remind myself of this, and burn, burn, burn off any haze of romance or sentimentality.

Of course, the most despicable old silver-backs are the ones who keep an older female for nurse/purse AND a younger female for sex-ercise. I am too soft-hearted and round-heeled, I don't know why I ever allow myself to feel sorry for any of them ever. All they deserve is internet porn and being rough-handled by some minimum wage worker changing their Depends.

Locked