Free Speech

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Riggerjack
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Re: Free Speech

Post by Riggerjack »

Well, there is free speech, as defined legally, in that the Constitution stops at government enforcement. Then there is free speech as a cultural norm, which is a completely different thing. It relates to the society we wish to live in and expectations of tolerance.

Clearly, this is being suppressed by our current self appointed nannies.

When I was younger, those nannies were old and Christian, and openly hostile to change and variety in lifestyle choices. My reaction was to go full, trenchcoat wearing, blue Mohawk, punk.

Now, just when the age of oldster nannies are on their way out, the new, younger, angrier nannies are here to tell us to conform to their expectations. That their constraints are different, in no way decreases their constriction.

I'm old enough to be caught a little flat footed by the call to conformity from the young'uns. And idealistic enough to feel betrayed.

But given what the science tells us of the neediness of authoritarians in both wings of the political spectrum, I guess I shouldn't expect anything better.

Riggerjack
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Re: Free Speech

Post by Riggerjack »

I've been itching to ask you all about your thoughts on Jordan Peterson
Um. So far, no thoughts. I first heard of him here. I did a quick search, and came up with Twitter and other social media links. I don't play much with social media, so I will look further and get back to you.

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GandK
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Re: Free Speech

Post by GandK »

Riggerjack wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:55 pm
... My reaction was to go full, trenchcoat wearing, blue Mohawk, punk.
:shock: I'm now picturing your old avatar with a blue mohawk. 8-)

Agree... when most people talk about freedom of speech, they're not speaking from a law school perspective. They mean that they want to freely speak their mind without impediment from any entity... culturally is the right word. I guess maybe we're just all feeling more constrained today than we did 30 years ago? In fairness, that feeling may be BS, though. 30 years ago, American society was a lot more homogeneous, and a lot of us had to either read widely or travel widely to bump into people/ideas that were way different than the ones we were raised with. Now they're everywhere, online and off. How would people have reacted then to widely differing norms in their face wherever they went? How many would have moralized instead of tolerated?

Riggerjack
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Re: Free Speech

Post by Riggerjack »

I found the Jordan Peterson website, eh. Read his wikipedia page, and while I can't find anything I disagree with in his arguments, he also had a tone I didn't like. This is a wiki, not his actual writing, so that may be what is throwing me. For the most part, I distrust people speaking of something modern as being Marxist. It is usually a sign that they don't know much about their subject, or Marxism.

Then I read his Quora page. It seemed like good answers to the kind of questions I would expect from teenagers. Like this response to "Can you have freedom without peace?" that almost seems written for this subject:
Absolutely. But you can't have peace without freedom.

Freedom is frequently the freedom to produce conflict. While conflict is not a good, in and of itself, it is very often necessary in the short term to prepare the ground for medium to long term peace. People who avoid necessary conflict don't get peace. They just save up more trouble for the future.

Peace is impossible without freedom, because people who are not free become resentful, and then they become underhanded and manipulative, and then they become vicious. And then things get worse.
And I think that is the crux of our issue here. Those who value peace above all else, and those who understand conflict to be inevitable, and that constant, low intensity conflict is far better than the explosion at the end of a period of suppressed conflict.

Riggerjack
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Re: Free Speech

Post by Riggerjack »

30 years ago, American society was a lot more homogeneous, and a lot of us had to either read widely or travel widely to bump into people/ideas that were way different than the ones we were raised with. Now they're everywhere, online and off.
Where did you grow up?!?

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jennypenny
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Re: Free Speech

Post by jennypenny »

Yes, I mean culturally more than legally. It scares me that we've been so eager to give up what I consider fundamental tenets of our culture -- first our privacy and now our freedom to speak our minds -- all in the name of making the world 'safer'. It also bothers me (and admittedly makes my tinfoil hat twitch) that tech companies have been so intimately involved in both issues.

I remember everyone in the entertainment industry jumping to the defense of 2 Live Crew back in the day. They all defended their right to sing whatever they wanted even if it was personally offensive. Now the left is playing the moral majority role. Strange.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... 65a19b23f4

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GandK
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Re: Free Speech

Post by GandK »

Riggerjack wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:49 pm
Where did you grow up?!?
Kentucky. :) One of the many places that voted Trump by a wide margin.

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GandK
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Re: Free Speech

Post by GandK »


BRUTE
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Re: Free Speech

Post by BRUTE »

Dragline wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:23 pm
The idea that people can just "get along" in some amorphous way without structure has come up repeatedly since Rousseau and has always ended pretty ugly.
ah, good old confusing "structure" with "gun to the head"... collectivists ;)

BRUTE
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Re: Free Speech

Post by BRUTE »

hurr, this post gave brute such a raging intellectual boner he'll have to call his doctor in 4 hours.

SO MUCH THIS!

plz y liberals no stop destroying liberalism?! staaawwwp!!!

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fiby41
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Re: Free Speech

Post by fiby41 »

pukingRainbows wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:51 am
I've been itching to ask you all about your thoughts on Jordan Peterson and this seems like an excellent segue way.
Disagree with him on some topics but great guy

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Free Speech

Post by ThisDinosaur »

So jennypenny is concerned about TechCo influence on free speech. I'd point out that you should also be paranoid about any attempt of the government to intervene there. Let's say certain viewpoints or narratives are being selectively omitted from the public. As a journalist, you (jennypenny) are in a unique position to find what pieces of information are being misrepresented, and tell the stories that no one else is telling. Seems like that approach would be profitable, even. #FreeMarketFixesEverything

Re:Jordan Peterson,
I think his main free speech issue is the gender pronouns thing. I haven't heard him say anything I disagree with. One group trying to police the speech of everyone else, and crying oppression when they refuse.

Wrt his Monomyth=Truth stuff, its fascinating. But I can't decide how much of that has anything to do with reality.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Free Speech

Post by ThisDinosaur »

Also, it might be against the First Amendment for the government to tell ISPs what they can and can't publish.

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