White supremacy run amok

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BRUTE
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by BRUTE »

that seems a bit like a false dichotomy. brute will try to back up a bit:

1)brute agrees that it's mostly not the fault of systemic oppression that young pepes are sad
2)brute does believe that blanket-targeting and blaming white males will lead these sad pepes to seek refuge in white identity etc.
3)brute does NOT believe that means they're morally justified

if this were a fire, and Spartan_Warrior tried to put it out with gasoline, brute would say "hey, that's a bad idea maybe". that doesn't mean brute likes the fire, believes the fire is morally justified, and wants it to win. just that the strategy of pouring gas on it is making it worse. now brute doesn't have a super amazing and detailed plan for fighting the fire, but he has the vague feeling that stopping to pour gasoline on it might be a good start.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

See, you can claim violent reactions aren't the best course, and there may be validity to that. It's the implications from the likes of Trump, libertarian "Sargon of Akkad", and seemingly many here, that "both sides" are morally equivalent and that both want violence--these are the claims that are galling, spurious and strawman-like. It also slides far too easily into the meme that anti-fascists are actually the cause for the rise of fascists, which is backward on the face of it, never mind the contradictions I've described in such a belief.

It strikes me as the same kind of eagerness to displace culpability that I see when people blame everyone but Trump voters for Trump.

@7Wannabe5 definitely may have been onto something about "authority versus responsibility." These people seem to have a thing for shedding responsibility.

Incidentally, the mostly decentralized, bottom-up, workplace-focused socialist solutions I suggested would seem to lend toward giving them (and everyone else in the 99%) both more authority over their lives and less responsibility when it comes to securing their economic outcomes.

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GandK
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by GandK »

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:09 pm
@7Wannabe5 definitely may have been onto something about "authority versus responsibility." These people seem to have a thing for shedding responsibility.
That's endemic lately, on both sides.

If one believes Neil Howe, then this [desire for a central authority to Fix It, whatever It is] is normal Fourth Turning stuff.

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Jean
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Jean »

Sw, you ask why white are asking for rights. That because of dicourses like yours innundating our society. Being constantly guilted for thing you haven't done, never profited from, and maybe even suffered from. Being called a kkk or nazi every day when you aren't. It just makes you want to become one. Your ideology is responsible for millions of death, and thanks to the free speech you enjoy, more people are seeing this and organizing against it.

bryan
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by bryan »

C40 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:59 am
As for the so rude declaration that I'm homeless (Actually, I know you were joking), yesterday I did the following inside my van:
...
- Masturbated while watching streaming porn on a laptop
...
I do have a nice smartphone, but it was only $60, plus $5 per month for unlimited data (which definitely helps with the porn)
Man.. that's living! lol. I didn't have an unlimited plan, so I started getting into erotic fiction.. :lol: :lol:
Riggerjack wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:14 pm
Now you may think I have some kinda commie hatred thing going on, but I actually like and support communism, at the small, family scale, where social pressure can keep it functional. But it doesn't scale. It is a disaster above that scale. Look to the history of intentional communities to verify this. Even dedicated, peaceful, loving people can't make this work for long at the small community scale. And at a national scale, well history has that answer.

Maybe European socialism is the answer? Well, Jacob knows all about this, and has spoken about it. I don't know much directly, and the really negative things I have read didn't seem very balanced, and my goal isn't to spread misinformation. But looking at the way Scandinavian governments have suppressed stories of crime and immigration should tell you something of the values they bring.
The one thing I wonder about in regards to scaling.. we have some great technology now! If an organization wanted to, they could create some scheme like direct democracy voting (with people not voting being able to allow some proxy to vote for them or losing their vote to some entity determined by some policy) with some additional checks and balances (maybe this direct voting replaces the Senate?). Worth exploring..

From travelling in Europe, I got the perception that the American way of life and system is preferable, for the most part. Most Europeans I spoke to agree (except for healthcare, guns). I know this is a pretty worthless observation to share.. but it's mine, fwiw.
Jean wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:59 pm
Being called a kkk or nazi every day when you aren't. It just makes you want to become one.
Really though? I would agree that it causes divisiveness, resentment, etc e.g. you had some pretty reasonable people become activated against the harassive SJWs by way of meme wars or social media comments or hyperbolic comments elsewhere (e.g. 4chan), etc. I would be surprised if they actually became kkk/nazi (more likely they just became anti-PC, which one could argue is the wrong general direction to be pushed).
Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:09 pm
See, you can claim violent reactions aren't the best course, and there may be validity to that. It's the implications from the likes of Trump, libertarian "Sargon of Akkad", and seemingly many here, that "both sides" are morally equivalent and that both want violence--these are the claims that are galling, spurious and strawman-like.
There is truth to it.. For instance it seems like Antifa/Anarchists generally want to overthrow American society or the powers that be; kind of like how BRUTE wouldn't mind the whole system burning (regardless of the pain that would be suffered by millions of humans). Trump coming to power has been an opportunity for both sides to get their ends. I wouldn't be surprised to see some "Antifa" getting into the alt-right and causing some shit (e.g. throwing a grenade at peaceful anti-nazi protesters) to further their cause; just like I wouldn't be surprised if the Antifa that have caused some violence in the past were actually alt-right persons in disguise.

Campitor
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Campitor »

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:23 pm

So my questions to you were: what happens as automation increases to the point that labor is no longer valued? Right now the bulk of mankind trades labor for money which is used for goods. What happens when the transaction rate between "labor" and "money" approaches 0?
Intellectual capital will replace labor for money. The talented and creative will use the automation and the resulting min/max salary to optimize their lifestyle beyond what other people are willing or able to do. They will use this automation to create new automation that will be desired by others. At this point others will either try to buy this new benefit or barter for it - since not everyone will be able to buy it or barter for it, this will give rise to a new set of "elites" that most will vilify as greedy all because these creative people had the intelligence to use existing inputs to their advantage.

There will be some people who will buy the Sexatron-2000 and sit around having robot sex all day and there will be others who will buy the Energon-2000 to create batteries which they will chain together to collect solar energy which will allow them to enjoy "free" energy and maybe have some left over to sell to their neighbors. Now Mr Sexatron will wonder how Mr Energon can afford to buy more stuff with his min/max salary and start to envy his neighbor's increased efficiency and better utilization of resources - then he will mistakenly believe that somehow Mr Energon has stolen wealth or accumulated it immorally.

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Jean
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Jean »

Not becomming one, but laughing at being called one and stop listening to the people who called you one and don't minding being associated with them. Sw decided that those people were all nazis. This shouldn't be believed without proof.
And yes, advocating the use of violence to silence people, should be a fringe position. It is per definition not protected by free speech, and it is as bad as nazism.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

https://medium.com/@harterhealing/how-a ... fb68da7e97

Uh-oh, more PC run amok, advocating confronting racists on their racism. Guess they'll all have to become Nazis now. The poor snowflakes.

BRUTE
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by BRUTE »

brute doesn't think that PC makes The Deplorables into actual nazis or klansmen. at least not very many. but it can move the Overton window (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window), and shift averages in more vaguely defined groups, e.g. alt-right.

there was a long discussion about what the alt-right even is on this forum, a few months back. it might've been in the Trump thread. brute, never having investigated it much, had previously been under the belief that alt-right were just 4chan trolls that spewed frog memes and yelled right-wing stuff because it got attention. a few links posted back then showed that some of the (apparent) founders of the alt-right were explicit nazis and white nationalists, and, to brute's surprise, also overt anti-semites.

not sure if this happens as part of some humans' explicit plans or just accidentally, but it seems that about 95% of the alt-right are angry trolls that like attention, pepe memes, and are angry at SJWs. 5% of the alt-right are actual white supremacists.

all players of this game profit from the confusion:
- the white supremacists can boast that they now have millions of followers instead of hundreds or thousands
- the trolls and anti-SJWs have the ultimate triggering and troll topic, nazi symbolism
- the SJWs have their imaginary enemy white supremacy uprising, which enables them to be triggered & outraged 24/7
- media loves spectacles and conflict anyway

in reality, though, brute suspects that the trolly/anti-PC humans are very different from the actual nazi/KKK humans.

what excessive PC does is shove the average of humans from the "reasonable/centrist" position into the 95% of "troll-right".

one PC tactic is also to move the Overton window to their side. Spartan_Warrior uses this tactic a lot on here - anything but his position is "nazi sympathizer". (for fairness, some on the right use the same tactic: anyone on the left is now antifa).

the whole thing has the effect of both polarizing humans, and also making them appear even more polarized than they actually are.

the terrible beliefs held by <5% and terrible deeds done by <0.1% of one group {alt-right,"the Left(tm)"} are now attributed to the entire vague group.

[edit]

re-reading his post, brute realized this strategy is used to the letter by The Right (tm) with muslims. 11 muslims flew a plane into a building? 1.5 billion muslims must want to do it.

just as excessive PC probably mostly moves the average, and pushes a few individuals over at the margin, the same is likely happening with US foreign policy and terrorist blowback.

Riggerjack
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Riggerjack »

Well, first, the way in which we speak, disagree, and call each other on our individual BS here, is not the norm in society or the internet. As a group of rationals, for the most part, life here really is different.

I want to thank you all.

I would also like to apologize to anyone offended by by earlier posts.

And now back to the less sensitive commentary you have come to expect from me...

I just reread this whole thread, looking for the contentious bs that had riled me up, previously. Um... I turns out it wasn't there. It wasn't what was said that got to me, but rather what I read into it that was the problem. So thank you for putting up with my over the top posting, I will try to do better in the future. In particular, thanks to C40 for his efforts to ensure a modicum of respect was maintained.

The one thing I wonder about in regards to scaling.. we have some great technology now! If an organization wanted to, they could create some scheme like direct democracy voting (with people not voting being able to allow some proxy to vote for them or losing their vote to some entity determined by some policy) with some additional checks and balances (maybe this direct voting replaces the Senate?). Worth exploring.
Well, honestly, I doubt direct democracy would change much. The average voter today, doesn't vote. And the more people i come to know, the less I trust their judgement collectively. I mean, look who we voted into the WH FFS.

If I were going for a big structural change in government, it would be to go more toward the Swiss model of local power and authority, and strip the central power from the federal government. I know that life is different in Kentucky than California, I don't mind the government reflecting this. If you want something different, move to another state. We all have different values and ideals, more variety in government would allow a closer fit for each of us. Plus, enacting change when you are dissatisfied with the current system is easier at a smaller level.
This leads to less of an empire kind of outlook, and more of a local confederacy kind of outlook. I believe this is the Swiss secret to not having these recreational wars we seem to be always in, or on the cusp of...

Campitor
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Campitor »

Riggerjack wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:59 pm

If I were going for a big structural change in government, it would be to go more toward the Swiss model of local power and authority, and strip the central power from the federal government. I know that life is different in Kentucky than California, I don't mind the government reflecting this. If you want something different, move to another state. We all have different values and ideals, more variety in government would allow a closer fit for each of us. Plus, enacting change when you are dissatisfied with the current system is easier at a smaller level.
This leads to less of an empire kind of outlook, and more of a local confederacy kind of outlook. I believe this is the Swiss secret to not having these recreational wars we seem to be always in, or on the cusp of...
This to the nth power. +1000 to RiggerJack. :D

BRUTE
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by BRUTE »

unfortunately, that well has (forever?) been poisoned with "states' rights == slavery", although some Democrats are apparently rediscovering states' rights under President Trumpenstein.

brute thinks that federalism/decentralization is suspect to big-government types just as the market is. they simply do not trust in human nature, and thus humans need looking after. of course, libertarians/decentralists also don't trust in human nature, which is why they don't want power centralized in any one group's hands.

same assumptions/goals, different conclusions. sounds familiar.

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TheWanderingScholar
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by TheWanderingScholar »

Also last time we tried out a Confederation style government it did not turn out so well.

And while the State's right of current has some benefits, projects such as multi-state environmental issues such the Great Lakes and Mississippi River Basin really require Federal oversights as they have the resources to do such projects as opposed to an individual state.


Even if we were to give states more rights does not automatically make people care more and more control, does not mean voters will care more or that is will produce better results.

BRUTE
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by BRUTE »

wouldn't the sum of all the resources be the same, no matter if they were controlled by various states or by one federal government?

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

"Holodomor"
Mismanagement is not genocide, "debate among historians is ongoing and there is no international consensus among scholars or governments on whether the Soviet policies that caused the famine fall under the legal definition of genocide." url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor ... e_question

> other past examples of Communism

Never once suggested replicating any of those past governments. Did suggest a lot of the failures are overblown by propaganda (like Holodomor) and also that past attempts were constantly and without exception under economic and/or open attack by the US and its post-WWII capitalist hegemony, making them poor examples of the success or failure of their ideas.

Not even the most extreme Marxist-Leninist (which I am not) supports Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, lol. It's about as silly to use as an example of what communists want as touting post-civil war Somalia as a libertarian ideal.

If communism is responsible for bread lines in Havana, we must acknowledge that capitalism is responsible for lead water in Detroit.

"Antifa/Anarchists"

Granted there is a lot of overlap between antifa and far-left ideologies, but it is technically two different groups/movements with different approaches and different goals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)

"Antifa focuses more on fighting far-right ideology than encouraging pro-left policy."

I now regret even bringing up leftist policies in this thread since it just plays into this stupid either/or argument. Again, I brought up socialistic solutions only because I think they would help the real underlying causes for the pain that is otherwise attributed to fictional persecution complexes that feed white supremacy.

You do not have to be an anarchist or pro-left to be anti-fascist just because we anarchists and leftists got there first. Again, you just have to be no further right than Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan.

"Intellectual capital will replace labor for money."

And when Artificial Intelligence capital replaces human intellectual capital? There are already AIs that invent their own languages and write novels. You're not thinking this through. Even creative labor can be automated. "First they automated the factory workers, and I said nothing, for I was not a factory worker. Then they automated the retail workers, and I said nothing..."

"in reality, though, brute suspects that the trolly/anti-PC humans are very different from the actual nazi/KKK humans."

Whether they're trolls there because it's "top kek" or not doesn't really matter once they're armed and marching in support of genocide, bolstering their ranks and running over their opposition with cars.

"one PC tactic is also to move the Overton window to their side. Spartan_Warrior uses this tactic a lot on here - anything but his position is "nazi sympathizer"."

LOL. Probably because those defending Nazis are basically acting as Overton-window meat shields themselves to legitimize genocide as a political position. "Just free speech", right, and always cast as equal to the speech of those opposing them.

"And yes, advocating the use of violence to silence people, should be a fringe position. It is per definition not protected by free speech, and it is as bad as nazism."

Nazis: We must subjugate and kill all non-whites to create a pure ethno-state.
Antifa: I am against this and will stop it by any means necessary.
Leftists: We should have free healthcare and more workers' rights.
BLM: Please stop shooting us.
Centrists: These are literally all equally bad!

Whether you think advocating for genocide is just free speech worthy of protection, whether you think it's "top kek" worthy of good lols due to psychopathic levels of nihilistic narcissism, or whether you think this looks and sounds like a fine idea for society... you are in a "morally different universe".

If you think trying to stop this is as bad as recruiting for it, then you are legitimizing and providing cover for white supremacists. You are acting as their bodyguards. You are their support. You are the one holding open the Overton window for them.

If you ever wondered how you would have behaved in Germany or Italy during the rise of fascism, you're doing it right now except with the added benefit of historical retrospection.

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GandK
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by GandK »

BRUTE wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:19 am
wouldn't the sum of all the resources be the same, no matter if they were controlled by various states or by one federal government?
Yes mathematically, but I'm having trouble picturing full Constitutional-style state control.

I wonder how many of the 50 states could, on paper, support themselves. I mean everything: food, energy, finances, a positive import/export balance, etc., not just tax flow.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

Look, a nuanced take that shreds the idea that fascists and anti-fascists are equivalent in either moral purpose, capability or intent for violence, or threat to the fabric of liberal society, while also lending support to the idea that violent reactions play into the top kek trolling of the fascists, with the important distinction being the leftists aren't the ones organizing the troll-rallies.

http://www.snopes.com/2017/08/17/are-an ... y-violent/

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

Here's what the mother of Heather Heyer had to say about Trump equivalating her daughter to the white nationalists who murdered her.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trump-tried-c ... 11953.html

Riggerjack
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Riggerjack »

Yup, just as politically neutral as all the rest of Snopes. For most of their topics, they do a good job, but they have no track record of trying for accuracy over advocacy in political topics.

Now, the driver of the car was caught, and however that works out, there will be a time when he is going to be explaining his racial supremacy to his cellmates, before they explain, in more physical terms where his value is centered. That is the whole of his future, and while I would prefer we do something in prison reform to protect prisoners from each other, for the sake of society at large, I can't muster any sympathy for this guy, or his future.

But, having had this horrible incident happen has a silver lining. This will separate the trolls from the supremacists. While I wish it would cause these guys to shut up disperse, and disappear, I have no hope that humans are that sensible. Still, it would be a surprise to me if this rally was ever repeated at this size. I would still like to see these rallies drop down to dozens, not thousands, and go back to the jokes they and their ideas should be. Unfortunately, I doubt the radical left will let that happen. They need a credible threat to react to, and as much as I think these fools are mainly trolls, they have clearly made a case for no longer being a joke.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

"I would still like to see these rallies drop down to dozens, not thousands, and go back to the jokes they and their ideas should be. Unfortunately, I doubt the radical left will let that happen."

:roll:

There are several more of the rallies planned, including for this weekend. We'll see as far as attendance, but they don't appear to be slowing down so far. I know, that's all the fault of those opposed to them though. Not, say, Trump encouraging them, and completely false persecution complexes, or a broken economy or anything like that.

http://www.newsweek.com/where-are-next- ... ned-651078
“These rallies aren’t about popularizing white nationalism,” read an anonymous post on 4Chan on Sunday, but “about normalizing white nationalism.”
There's that Overton window again.
Last edited by Spartan_Warrior on Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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