White supremacy run amok

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Campitor
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Campitor »

Riggerjack wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:59 pm

If I were going for a big structural change in government, it would be to go more toward the Swiss model of local power and authority, and strip the central power from the federal government. I know that life is different in Kentucky than California, I don't mind the government reflecting this. If you want something different, move to another state. We all have different values and ideals, more variety in government would allow a closer fit for each of us. Plus, enacting change when you are dissatisfied with the current system is easier at a smaller level.
This leads to less of an empire kind of outlook, and more of a local confederacy kind of outlook. I believe this is the Swiss secret to not having these recreational wars we seem to be always in, or on the cusp of...
This to the nth power. +1000 to RiggerJack. :D

BRUTE
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by BRUTE »

unfortunately, that well has (forever?) been poisoned with "states' rights == slavery", although some Democrats are apparently rediscovering states' rights under President Trumpenstein.

brute thinks that federalism/decentralization is suspect to big-government types just as the market is. they simply do not trust in human nature, and thus humans need looking after. of course, libertarians/decentralists also don't trust in human nature, which is why they don't want power centralized in any one group's hands.

same assumptions/goals, different conclusions. sounds familiar.

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TheWanderingScholar
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by TheWanderingScholar »

Also last time we tried out a Confederation style government it did not turn out so well.

And while the State's right of current has some benefits, projects such as multi-state environmental issues such the Great Lakes and Mississippi River Basin really require Federal oversights as they have the resources to do such projects as opposed to an individual state.


Even if we were to give states more rights does not automatically make people care more and more control, does not mean voters will care more or that is will produce better results.

BRUTE
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by BRUTE »

wouldn't the sum of all the resources be the same, no matter if they were controlled by various states or by one federal government?

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

"Holodomor"
Mismanagement is not genocide, "debate among historians is ongoing and there is no international consensus among scholars or governments on whether the Soviet policies that caused the famine fall under the legal definition of genocide." url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor ... e_question

> other past examples of Communism

Never once suggested replicating any of those past governments. Did suggest a lot of the failures are overblown by propaganda (like Holodomor) and also that past attempts were constantly and without exception under economic and/or open attack by the US and its post-WWII capitalist hegemony, making them poor examples of the success or failure of their ideas.

Not even the most extreme Marxist-Leninist (which I am not) supports Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, lol. It's about as silly to use as an example of what communists want as touting post-civil war Somalia as a libertarian ideal.

If communism is responsible for bread lines in Havana, we must acknowledge that capitalism is responsible for lead water in Detroit.

"Antifa/Anarchists"

Granted there is a lot of overlap between antifa and far-left ideologies, but it is technically two different groups/movements with different approaches and different goals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)

"Antifa focuses more on fighting far-right ideology than encouraging pro-left policy."

I now regret even bringing up leftist policies in this thread since it just plays into this stupid either/or argument. Again, I brought up socialistic solutions only because I think they would help the real underlying causes for the pain that is otherwise attributed to fictional persecution complexes that feed white supremacy.

You do not have to be an anarchist or pro-left to be anti-fascist just because we anarchists and leftists got there first. Again, you just have to be no further right than Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan.

"Intellectual capital will replace labor for money."

And when Artificial Intelligence capital replaces human intellectual capital? There are already AIs that invent their own languages and write novels. You're not thinking this through. Even creative labor can be automated. "First they automated the factory workers, and I said nothing, for I was not a factory worker. Then they automated the retail workers, and I said nothing..."

"in reality, though, brute suspects that the trolly/anti-PC humans are very different from the actual nazi/KKK humans."

Whether they're trolls there because it's "top kek" or not doesn't really matter once they're armed and marching in support of genocide, bolstering their ranks and running over their opposition with cars.

"one PC tactic is also to move the Overton window to their side. Spartan_Warrior uses this tactic a lot on here - anything but his position is "nazi sympathizer"."

LOL. Probably because those defending Nazis are basically acting as Overton-window meat shields themselves to legitimize genocide as a political position. "Just free speech", right, and always cast as equal to the speech of those opposing them.

"And yes, advocating the use of violence to silence people, should be a fringe position. It is per definition not protected by free speech, and it is as bad as nazism."

Nazis: We must subjugate and kill all non-whites to create a pure ethno-state.
Antifa: I am against this and will stop it by any means necessary.
Leftists: We should have free healthcare and more workers' rights.
BLM: Please stop shooting us.
Centrists: These are literally all equally bad!

Whether you think advocating for genocide is just free speech worthy of protection, whether you think it's "top kek" worthy of good lols due to psychopathic levels of nihilistic narcissism, or whether you think this looks and sounds like a fine idea for society... you are in a "morally different universe".

If you think trying to stop this is as bad as recruiting for it, then you are legitimizing and providing cover for white supremacists. You are acting as their bodyguards. You are their support. You are the one holding open the Overton window for them.

If you ever wondered how you would have behaved in Germany or Italy during the rise of fascism, you're doing it right now except with the added benefit of historical retrospection.

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GandK
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by GandK »

BRUTE wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:19 am
wouldn't the sum of all the resources be the same, no matter if they were controlled by various states or by one federal government?
Yes mathematically, but I'm having trouble picturing full Constitutional-style state control.

I wonder how many of the 50 states could, on paper, support themselves. I mean everything: food, energy, finances, a positive import/export balance, etc., not just tax flow.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

Look, a nuanced take that shreds the idea that fascists and anti-fascists are equivalent in either moral purpose, capability or intent for violence, or threat to the fabric of liberal society, while also lending support to the idea that violent reactions play into the top kek trolling of the fascists, with the important distinction being the leftists aren't the ones organizing the troll-rallies.

http://www.snopes.com/2017/08/17/are-an ... y-violent/

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

Here's what the mother of Heather Heyer had to say about Trump equivalating her daughter to the white nationalists who murdered her.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trump-tried-c ... 11953.html

Riggerjack
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Riggerjack »

Yup, just as politically neutral as all the rest of Snopes. For most of their topics, they do a good job, but they have no track record of trying for accuracy over advocacy in political topics.

Now, the driver of the car was caught, and however that works out, there will be a time when he is going to be explaining his racial supremacy to his cellmates, before they explain, in more physical terms where his value is centered. That is the whole of his future, and while I would prefer we do something in prison reform to protect prisoners from each other, for the sake of society at large, I can't muster any sympathy for this guy, or his future.

But, having had this horrible incident happen has a silver lining. This will separate the trolls from the supremacists. While I wish it would cause these guys to shut up disperse, and disappear, I have no hope that humans are that sensible. Still, it would be a surprise to me if this rally was ever repeated at this size. I would still like to see these rallies drop down to dozens, not thousands, and go back to the jokes they and their ideas should be. Unfortunately, I doubt the radical left will let that happen. They need a credible threat to react to, and as much as I think these fools are mainly trolls, they have clearly made a case for no longer being a joke.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

"I would still like to see these rallies drop down to dozens, not thousands, and go back to the jokes they and their ideas should be. Unfortunately, I doubt the radical left will let that happen."

:roll:

There are several more of the rallies planned, including for this weekend. We'll see as far as attendance, but they don't appear to be slowing down so far. I know, that's all the fault of those opposed to them though. Not, say, Trump encouraging them, and completely false persecution complexes, or a broken economy or anything like that.

http://www.newsweek.com/where-are-next- ... ned-651078
“These rallies aren’t about popularizing white nationalism,” read an anonymous post on 4Chan on Sunday, but “about normalizing white nationalism.”
There's that Overton window again.
Last edited by Spartan_Warrior on Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Jean
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Jean »

The point is that they arent advocating for genocide, and repeating that they are is just splitting society.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

What are Nazis and KKK advocating then?

distracted_at_work
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by distracted_at_work »

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:46 am
Mismanagement is not genocide, "debate among historians is ongoing and there is no international consensus among scholars or governments on whether the Soviet policies that caused the famine fall under the legal definition of genocide." url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor ... e_question
To Ukrainians, you've just became the equivalent of a Holocaust denier. The Wikipedia article you linked exclusively features scholars that clearly state it went beyond Government mismanagement into deliberate starvation of Ukrainians for political gain. There are thousands of eye-witness accounts, relations and relations of friends included...
Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:46 am
overblown by propaganda (like Holodomor)
Citation needed.
Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:46 am
If you ever wondered how you would have behaved in Germany or Italy during the rise of fascism, you're doing it right now except with the added benefit of historical retrospection.
Go drive down south and do something about it then. If fascism is on the rise, now is your chance to stop it, right?

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Jean
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Jean »

I dont know. Those people arent nazi or kkk. Even if some of them are. Most arent. And by repeating that they are, you force them to associate if they dont want to get beaten up by antifas.

Riggerjack
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Riggerjack »

I've talked a bit, over the years here about the things in my childhood, that seemed so normal, but thankfully are not. Everywhere I went, if you drew up as a Venn diagram, would have strong overlaps for drugs, criminals, physical, and sexual abuse. Breaking it out for race wouldn't change it much when I lived in town, and was mainly white when I lived in the sticks.

When I think back to some of the conversations I had back between ages 5 to 10, I think it's amazing so many of us made it to adults.

When I went back to the old neighborhoods as an adult, there really was nobody there anymore.

My high school class had a mortality rate of nearly 15 percent in the first decade. Most of my childhood friends are dead or lifers.

So, when some spoiled, soft, overeducated, cu$#@&***, eh hem. I mean Peace loving community builder, tells me I have been spoiled by living life on easy mode, my initial thoughts are not peaceful or community oriented.

But I'm a rational, grown ass man. I take a breath, and remember that while he is talking to me, about a group that includes me, he isn't talking about me. That when he sneers at white privilege, he is really trying to resolve his own history with his own ideals, and a strong reaction from me will neither help him, nor me.

And I let it go. As best I can.

But there was a time, when I was young, and trying to work out who I was and where I wanted to go in life. Trying to break the patterns of behavior that created the mess I came from and form a better life for myself.

I am glad that I am old enough that I was able to do this without the level of PC BS kids today have to work through. This is what I meant by making Nazis. When you dismiss the struggles of someone based on race, when you try to suppress his experience when it doesn't match up with your preconceived storyline of skin tone privilege, you push him away. And as we have seen, there are those on the other side who are constantly recruiting.

We are 12 pages into this, and while there is a constant conversation about race, privilege, and poverty going on here, the closest we, who are rationals, have come to using numbers is:
quote]
Asians - 84% chance of two parents in family - $75k median income
Whites - 75% chance of two parents in family - $60k median income
Hispanic/Latino - 60% chance of two parent family - $??k median income
Blacks - 35% chance of two parent family - $36k median income [/quote]

And I have to ask myself if race is X percent correlated to poverty, but poverty is 100 percent correlated to poverty, why we are talking about race. If race is X percent correlated with privilege, and class is 100 percent correlated to privilege, why we are talking about race.

Now this is a white supremacy thread, so a certain amount of race plays into that, clearly. But this is not the only thread we speak past each other on, dealing with the same topics. But in each of these threads, we speak of race, as a proxy for the real issues, instead of the real issues.

Why is that?

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@distracted

The section I quoted has two references that highlight ongoing debate on the intentionality of the famine. Regardless, I have no stance on the events at all beyond what I described regarding what we know of these regimes being filtered through propaganda on their side and our side. It's irrelevant to the discussion. I'm not a Stalinist or arguing for Stalinism. It's just some strawman raised in response to unrelated calls for more democratic workplaces. Unlike, say, self-described Nazis literally arguing for Nazism...

"Go drive down south and do something about it then. If fascism is on the rise, now is your chance to stop it, right?"

There's the difference. I'm not driving anywhere to go looking for trouble.

If they want to come to my town wearing swastikas, though, my friends and I will be there to meet them.

@Jean:

"Those people aren't nazi or kkk"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the ... Protesters

Looks like a bunch of Nazis and KKK to me.

"Even if some of them are. Most arent. "

Nah, if they're there to unite with white supremacists, they are white supremacists.

"you force them to associate if they dont want to get beaten up by antifas."

Nah, nonsensical persecution complexes force them to associate with Nazis. If they don't want to get beaten up by anti-fascists, they could always... NOT associate with Nazis.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

"And I have to ask myself if race is X percent correlated to poverty, but poverty is 100 percent correlated to poverty, why we are talking about race. If race is X percent correlated with privilege, and class is 100 percent correlated to privilege, why we are talking about race."

Comrade Riggerjack!

The Old Man
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by The Old Man »

Riggerjack wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:40 am
And I have to ask myself if race is X percent correlated to poverty, but poverty is 100 percent correlated to poverty, why we are talking about race. If race is X percent correlated with privilege, and class is 100 percent correlated to privilege, why we are talking about race....But in each of these threads, we speak of race, as a proxy for the real issues, instead of the real issues.
Simple. It is politics. Race is the narrative. To consider that Social Class is the real underlying issue would mean that -- gasp -- poor whites would need to be included. People don't want to solve real problems.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@Riggerjack:

Just as a thought experiment, can you imagine ways your life may have been harder if you hadn't been a (straight) white (male) person? If you were born in the same circumstances, but to black parents, or Muslim parents? Or perhaps if you had been born gay? Do you think any events or experiences in your life that might have played out differently?


BTW, there's no need to (somewhat passive aggressively if I may say so) cross-post your question to another thread. I've been posting questions along the lines of exactly what you asked for almost the entire thread and find it quite relevant.

Chad
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Chad »

Riggerjack wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:40 am

Asians - 84% chance of two parents in family - $75k median income
Whites - 75% chance of two parents in family - $60k median income
Hispanic/Latino - 60% chance of two parent family - $??k median income
Blacks - 35% chance of two parent family - $36k median income

And I have to ask myself if race is X percent correlated to poverty, but poverty is 100 percent correlated to poverty, why we are talking about race. If race is X percent correlated with privilege, and class is 100 percent correlated to privilege, why we are talking about race.
Before I go further, I get your point.

If there are significant differences between races concerning poverty, or associated factors, then there appears to be racial variable in part of the poverty equation. This means what may work to bring some out of poverty won't work for others because the racial variable is too heavy/different in that equation.

So, yes, you are correct that poverty is 100% correlated to poverty, but the "why" is not always the same for everyone.

And, yes, some on the side looking at poverty through race gets blinded by it and makes poor decisions. The question/help should start from the 100% poverty and move down the "tree" breaking out the various groups with their various reasons. Some of the reasons for the different groups would be similar, but some won't be. A failure to do this has helped create Trump and this situation. Though, I don't think it is the only big factor, it is one of the big ones.

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