White supremacy run amok

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
BRUTE
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by BRUTE »

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:13 am
I think of "privilege" as a zero-sum game, in this way similar to the term "advantage". Privilege exists for one group necessarily because it doesn't exist for another group. To give the privileges of one group to every group would be to destroy the concept of privilege. I don't disagree with that.
that seems the crux of the problem to brute.

in a zero-sum game, the optimal strategy is to take from others away to gain as an individual. in a positive sum game, players could cooperate to create a bigger privilege pie for all players to share.

many PC fascists very overtly state that it's a zero-sum game for them, or they at least act like they're playing a zero-sum game.

if the only way other individuals can gain privilege is by taking it away from brute, does Spartan_Warrior want to hazard a guess what brute's response will be?

in brute's opinion, the only way this is ever going to get resolved (where "this" refers to race relations and sex relations) is by turning it from a zero-sum game into a positive-sum game.

brute thinks it actually could be a positive-sum game. if blacks and women and whoever have better jobs and more economic stability, this boosts the entire economy. rising tide lifts all boats, right? it would be great for whites as well. kind of like outsourcing can be good even for factory workers that got outsourced, in the long run.

but playing positive-sum games requires cooperation and long-term vision that transcend short-term tribalism. so brute doesn't see it happen any time soon.

Riggerjack
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Riggerjack »

Just so I'm sure we're seeing the same article, I'll link it again.

White supremacists beat black man with poles in Charlottesville

There's a video at the top. What I see are indeed greasy losers looking like pathetic LARPers, but they're also already clearly armed with their "tools" for violence. They are then distracted by something that is not evident, and charge into a parking garage where they are seen beating a man. The article's text notes there were no police on the scene, but little else about the circumstances. It gives nothing to indicate the man beaten was even a counter-protester. It gives nothing to indicate he "and his buddies" "taunted the other side". What article did you read that gave you all this insight? Or did you simply choose to take what you wanted from it?
Shit. Sorry man. I totally missed this. I followed your link, then clicked on the link to the story of the interview of the guy with the scalp wound. I didn't realize further inquiry was unfair. In the future, should I limit my information to only that which you provide, to make it easier for you to keep up?

As a side note on racists, i have known some. They pretty much fell into 2 categories, ex cons, and religious nutjobs. And I've never met a single one that had the power to hire, fire, or even reprimand anyone else. Universally, they were all at the bottom of their heap. So, since I am not without sin, and have been wrong at some point in the past, I consider this a flaw, but not one I am likely to be able to fix. So, I try to move past it. I have known some people who have done some really horrible shit, and were also capable of some really great things. It's almost like real people are complex, and efforts to categorize them into simple caricatures mainly serve to remove empathy for them. Or, maybe I just lack sW's insights into human nature, and it takes me time to figure out by talking to them everything SW can see in an instant in a photo...

Riggerjack
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Riggerjack »

On the subject of racist dickheads, it seems my experience isn't very relevant in the context of today's rally attending racist dickheads.

See, the ones I have known were ex cons or religious nuts. And, I expect someone to have irrational thoughts and fears after a gang rape. I can't hold it against them that they have some issues to work thru. Since their solutions seem to center around avoidance of interracial interactions, thus sparing innocent members of minority races to their baggage, I try to give them a pass, and work with them on a level where they can function.

As for the religious nuts, if you think God made men black to mark them in some form of inferiority, man, nothing I say is gonna get thru. So, I chuckle and move on. Life is too short.

But, in following SWs links, apparently, the racist dickheads in this weekend's rally really don't belong in either group. Sorry, no link, and I don't have the stomach to go down that rabbit hole again. But one author was doing interviews and pointed out that none of the guys she spoke to knew who David Duke was. That they had all found their way to where they were by way of the internet. That most got chased out of other places by SJWs, and found a new home.

Which gets back to what I was saying before. The racist dickheads I have known were basically unfixable. Nothing was going to ever make them right, and their solutions, hiding out in compounds in the middle of nowhere, was probably the best overall solution.

But this new breed seems to be a direct reaction to the radical left. So I guess that justifies the rage folks here have shown, they aren't just wrong, they are rejecting your views, to your faces.

Then there is this witch-hunt using social media to hunt down and haunt anyone who had their photo taken. Honestly, I don't know how to feel about this. On the one hand, it is satisfying. And effective. And nonviolent. And we need to have some form of social shaming to discourage people from breaking social norms. So, in that way, I'm all for it.

But on the other hand, this is judging someone based off a photo, with no context, no appeal, and the internet doesn't forget. I'm not sure this is going to lead to a better society. In fact, I'm pretty sure this will be far more harmful, long term, than good.

But, dammit, I don't have a better suggestion, and this is better than the antifascist solution.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@Brute:

You misunderstand, but ironically I think we're getting closer to agreement. It only becomes a zero-sum game when the focus is on privilege (or the removal of existing privilege, aka 99% of complaining about PC). This:

"if the only way other individuals can gain privilege is by taking it away from brute, does Spartan_Warrior want to hazard a guess what brute's response will be?"

...is exactly the mistake. If you want equality, why are you worried about privilege at all? The two literally cannot exist together.


@RJ: "In the future, should I limit my information to only that which you provide, to make it easier for you to keep up?"

Nah, the usual practice would be to provide the link to the information you're going from. (ETA: And emphatically not, I'll note, making accusations that the articles that I did post say something different from what they do.)

"So I guess that justifies the rage folks here have shown"
Donald Trump wrote:...On many sides. On many sides.

I sort of agree though. They are definitely losers who can't function in present society. Losers who have taken their persecution complexes to such extremes as to take up genocidal ideologies against scapegoats with nothing to do with their problems. Yet they're surprised and hurt to find themselves ostracized by broader society. Naturally when that happens they crawl back to their safe spaces to nurse their imagined wounds and complain to any other like-minded losers who'll listen about how political correctness holds the white man down.

The question is, why are there suddenly so many like-minded losers?

Could it be the rules of the game?
Last edited by Spartan_Warrior on Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BRUTE
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by BRUTE »

[edit]

Response to Riggerjack's social media vigilantism thoughts:

and apparently they mis-identified some random guy from Arkansas because he was wearing a similar t-shirt, and tried to ruin his life and get him fired. all because someone with the same t-shirt attended a rally.

maybe this is why vigilantism is bad. no fair trial is possible in the court of public opinion.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

Speaking of losers and the "witch-hunts"/Nazi-hunts to find them:

Neo-Nazi blubbers like a baby in video reporting he's wanted for arrest in Charlottesville

Love or hate it, this is about as close as you'll get to a non-violent "free market" solution. At least we might get them to mask up again instead of thinking they can walk around without shame. That change alone speaks volumes.

BRUTE
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by BRUTE »

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:56 pm
You misunderstand, but ironically I think we're getting closer to agreement. It only becomes a zero-sum game when the focus is on privilege (or the removal of existing privilege, aka 99% of complaining about PC).
alright! brute completely agrees with this statement. brute is also in favor of pretty much any policy or project that enables positive-sum improvements for humans who are currently at the lower ends of the happiness/economic stability/equality before the law spectrum. the one caveat is that brute is a libertarian who reads economics in his free time. so his idea of what will benefit those humans is typically quite different from what many humans imagine would benefit them.

how does Spartan_Warrior feel about these policies, for example?

- decriminalization of all drugs. non-violent drug offenses aren't offending anyone, and hit poor socio-economic humans hardest (inner-city blacks and white meth heads).
- decriminalization of victimless crime.
- basically abolishing prison except for psychopathic murderers. currently, prisons breed more criminals and are human rights violation factories. instead, some kind of working-off and repaying damages system. this way, offenders stay integrated into their social environment and society
- where possible, increased voluntary intermingling of all sorts - intellectually, racially, by gender, disabled, whatever. but, please, not by quotas. making humans do things never leads to good things.
- more freedom of school choice. US schools are incredibly segregated, both socio-economically and racially. this is an explicit function of public school policy and school funding. more school choice would help. charter, private, whatever. shock, gasp, even religious schools.
- enabling young and low-skilled humans to enter the work force, instead of basically forcing them to work for drug gangs or stay poor, which breeds resentment for others.
- this means likely decreasing minimum wage and regulations.
- decreasing subsidies for higher education, and somehow slowly ramping down the crazy student loans.
- somehow pushing careers in the trades or similar jobs vs. 4 year college educations. not all jobs require a college degree, and not every college degree is worth the time and money. Trump is apparently doing this. yay, Trump did something right!
- something about the whole illegal immigration thing. it's quite absurd to brute that 1/2 of the southern (west and east) agriculture economy is based on permanently available illegal immigrants that are not subject to minimum wage and regulations. this is pretty dysfunctional. if the economy can't survive without their labor, maybe it should stop. or maybe regulations should be relaxed. but having this permanent state of legal grey area empowers gangs, smugglers, coyotes, instead of the humans who actually immigrate, 99.9% of which are hard-working and honest.

Riggerjack
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Riggerjack »

Well, they guy totally screaming whatever chant they are doing, is obviously totally into the whole thing. But for every pic of him, there seem to be 10 others in the background, who aren't.

I don't know anyone who went. I think. But I can picture a guy going along to keep his dumbass brother from doing anything life changingly stupid, getting caught up in the vigilante justice. Apparently, one of these guys was disowned by his father when he was outted. I can picture some pissed off young man getting into this as the best way to piss of the old man.

I know pissing off my hippy dippy parents was a factor in me joining the army. My decision haunted me for four years, maybe his will only haunt him for four years, but maybe not.

My concern over this really isn't misidentification. It is what kind of world I want to live in. Some folks feel that free speech only protects you from the government. Well, that's where the Constitution stops, but where do we draw the line in society? Personally, I believe that horrible shit grows in the dark, so airing your worst suspicions is healthy for individuals and society. I like to live in a world where if someone feels I have gone too far, they feel comfortable calling me on it. I think we are stronger for it.

I disagree with damn near everything SW has ever typed, but I'm glad he's here, and think we are better for having him. A world where either he or I didn't feel safe saying what we think is a less colorful, vibrant place.

This vigilante justice doesn't promote that.

Earlier in this thread, I announced that I was a nazi sympathizer. I never thought I'd say that! But I was trying to reroute the ranting. Sometimes, saying such over the top things can do that. But also, as I type this, some hacker somewhere could be tracking down my IP address, so they can out me as a nazi. I could be spending the rest of my life trying to unring that bell.

That doesn't make the world a better place for anyone.

Campitor
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Campitor »

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:13 am
@Campitor:
As far as the deaths from US imperial wars... so? How many brown people did the Americans kill in those wars? And for what reason? Who benefited for all those deaths?
The people in power benefited from those deaths and they happened to be white. But death by Whites has never been a monopoly that only people of color have endured nor has genocide been a monopoly of the white man. Stalin killed much of his fellow citizens and so did Chairman Mao. The Hutu and Tutsi hacked each other to pieces with machetes and I'm 100% they didn't do it to benefit any white guy. Pol Pot wasn't white and he killed 25% of his fellow citizens. Pinochet killed and tortured large segments of his Chilean population. The Aztecs and the Maya were killing themselves in droves long before the Spanish arrived on their shores. The Japanese were a feudal society who fought each other constantly before they decided that killing Asians on the mainland was a better idea. India and Pakistan have been fighting each other for years. And Ecuador and Peru can't seem to stop fighting over their mutual borders. Look into anyone's history and you will find civil war, tribal conflict, and exploitation. No one is without sin.

TopHatFox
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by TopHatFox »

fiby41 wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:48 pm
People who think EREers only eat lentils are the same people who think the only furniture you can have sex on is a bed.
I don't know about that ;)

Carry on. I'm with JennyPenny on this one!

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@Brute:

Just when I thought we were finding common ground, I guess it's finally time to bring out the blunt ideological pitches. ;)

I agree with some small portions of what libertarianism proposes. Riggerjack likes to proclaim that he used to be a liberal. Well, I used to consider myself a libertarian. Like I've said before recently, libertarians recognize some real problems, but the causes they attribute to these problems and the economic frameworks they work with take them to counter-intuitive and counter-productive solutions.

They don't like the government because they correctly believe that it's controlled by the rich and thus undemocratic and out to get the little guy. All true. However, instead of recognizing this as the inherent result of a capitalist system that pools wealth in the hands of a few who will inevitably buy disproportionate influence, libertarians invent a bogeyman, "crony capitalism" (frightfully close to the liberal bogeyman of "corporatism" or "corporate capitalism"... nah, all just plain capitalism).

They don't like affirmative action and identity politics because they correctly sense this is in some way a weird liberal shell game that amounts to rearranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic. But instead of focusing on the sinking ship, their loudest focus is on retaining control of their particular chair and lashing out at anyone perceived as taking it away, in what amounts to its own form of identity politics.

They recognize that "taxes are theft", because it is the removal of some of the value of their labor to go to the evil "government" (which, again, really means subsidizing the wealthy who direct the government); but they fail to see that their employer's profits are also theft, because it too is extracted from the full value of their labor. Indeed, wages are definitionally what is left over after your employer takes an ever-increasing portion of the value of your productivity to hand to themselves and shareholders who don't work. In other words, taxes are no more theft than wage labor itself, and either way what is stolen goes to the same place--the wealthy.

So, yeah. You've presented some of the more reasonable ideas of libertarians tbh, but ultimately it still comes out wrong. The ideology cannot serve the purposes of equality or benefit the majority.

Decriminalization of non-violent offenses sounds fine. Great way to undercut some of the systemic oppression that disproportionately affects non-whites. Abolishing for-profit prisons that incentivize incarceration, absolutely, and limiting the kinds of crimes we punish with incarceration, great.

"Increased voluntary intermingling" sounds like an Orwellian way of saying abolishing affirmative action. That could work as long as other changes were made in the system to create equality elsewhere, as otherwise it's basically just shifting the privilege shell game back to white males without addressing the sinking ship.

You lose me instantly with things like "freedom" of school choice. What libertarianism means by the word "freedom" in instances like this is, quite ironically, "available to those who can pay for it".

If the real structural issues holding down the disadvantaged 99% of white men are economic, how does that "freedom" help them? Are you saying that white meth heads and basement dwellers whose main problem is poverty will somehow be able to afford to "choose" a good charter school to improve their family's lot?

Aren't you really trading authority in their lives from one source--government--to another source--their employer? Considering that government is at least nominally democratic and representative, whereas private corporations are authoritarian, how does that change introduce more "freedom" into their lives?

Same thing for "decreasing subsidies for higher education." What that means is making higher education only available to those who can pay for it. Both college and trade schools should be free to attend and non-profit. Only then will poor whites AND blacks, women, et al, have truly equal access with the rich.

Your solution to poverty is to put more people to work at lower wages, selling more life-energy for wages that are ever-decreasing because of permanent trends in automation and human ingenuity that render labor of less and less value over time. This is the opposite of what I consider the humane solution, which would be allowing the bulk of mankind to benefit from those improvements and work less for more, not more for less. Why should only capitalists like ourselves get those benefits of productivity? And what about those poor white men in their mom's basements? If they can't better themselves on their current minimum wage jobs, how will lowering their wages help?

Minimum wage should increase and a maximum wage should be instituted. Better yet, abolish all wages, as the system of wage labor is theft, and provide all employees equal ownership in and equal share of the profits of any business that runs on their labor.

I agree that something should be done about illegal immigration. I don't have an easy solution, but my instinct says the regulations should be relaxed and made more fair. Interestingly, on the subject of quotas, I believe a lot of this problem stems from immigration quotas limiting the influx of residents from countries like Mexico. Not sure about that though.


Going back to the game metaphor to conclude my own counter-pitch: I've established that there are different difficulty modes to the game and that these roughly correlate to social identity groups, mostly due to causal chains related to historic or ongoing oppression like bigotry and disenfranchisement, such that straight cis white American-born males are generally playing on "Easiest" whereas someone like a gay trans Middle Eastern-born woman might be said to be playing on "Hardest", or something like that.

The way I see it, there's also a hidden "Developer" mode available to an ever-narrowing few. Far easier than even the public "Easiest" modes, the ones who get to play on this mode can rewrite the rules of the game as they see fit and therefore do whatever they want. Since this is an open-world survival game where everyone plays on the same server, there are limited resources available to all, and so the Developers naturally have an advantage over all the other players on the server. Indeed, the reason the game is getting harder and harder for the other players is because of the rules the Developers get to write for themselves.

Your propositions would result in ever-more stratified levels of difficulty while continuing to increase the overall difficulty level across the board. The Developers get to continue playing Developer mode. They get to keep being the big club George Carlin described, the one that gets all the good land, all the good resources. They own the game. They own the players. They own the world.

My proposition? Break the game. Deliver the promise of actual democracy and freedom from economic oppression.

Open Developer mode to all.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

Still finding it hilariously ironic how intent everyone here seems to be on bullying me into silence.

But free speech for Nazis, yeah.

Oh, and how dare you oppress me with your political correct demands that I not say anything that make you uncomfortable.

TopHatFox
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by TopHatFox »

Silence? No way man!

Write away~ There's a famous quote by Voltaire I like. : )

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

Maybe I misunderstood then. What was the purpose of your comments? What did Jenny Penny say that you agree with?

BRUTE
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by BRUTE »

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:09 pm
Open Developer mode to all.
well, at least Spartan_Warrior and brute now agree on what would be nice, and are acknowledging the other's good intentions.

the implementation details seem to need some working out ;)

frankly, the only alternatives to capitalism that brute has seen historically are far worse: fascism, communism, socialism. not every human is a winner in capitalism, but in other systems, almost every human is a loser. the 1% vs. 99% rhetoric used against capitalism by some humans applies 100x more to any alternative system. at least the 99% in capitalism drive Honda Accords, own smartphones, and flat screen television. the 99% in communism are waiting in line for bread and heat their homes with furniture.

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C40
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by C40 »

You guys are getting into some interesting and thought-provoking posts.

I don't know or think much about these things so I don't have any substance to add. Just a couple thoughts

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:09 pm
Going back to the game metaphor to conclude my own counter-pitch: I've established that there are different difficulty modes to the game and that these roughly correlate to social identity groups, mostly due to causal chains related to historic or ongoing oppression like bigotry and disenfranchisement, such that straight cis white American-born males are generally playing on "Easiest" whereas someone like a gay trans Middle Eastern-born woman might be said to be playing on "Hardest", or something like that.
It totally depends on how you're judging these things, but on those two scales I looked up, Asian Americans are playing on "easiest", and whites second easiest. Another candidate for hardest difficulty would be a child born in a North Korean labor camp. Now, that's an interesting thing, given that a some of those Asian American's playing on easy mode in the U.S. are children of South Koreans - and - the same exact race/ethnicity.

I do definitely think that "easy mode" is about more than just having two parents who earn a lot. I had a close Vietnamese/Mexican friend in the midwest US. In a city of nearly all white people, he got the short end of the stick on dating/sex (most young white women don't dig asian guys). I believe he had more fair luck when he moved to California, but, not much more. But... another guy we knew who lived in the same midwestern city, who I think is Vietnamese, seemed to have absolutely no shortage of white women whether he was in the midwest or in San Francisco.

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:09 pm
My proposition? Break the game. Deliver the promise of actual democracy and freedom from economic oppression.

Open Developer mode to all.
But... damn-it, I just spent the last 30 years playing the game, and I won. I don't wanna have to start over in a new one. (says the guy who won on an easy mode)

One related thing I remember a friend and I reassuring each-other about, was, more or less: "it doesn't matter if things get all switched around, if the government or rules change drastically. You and I will still be able to figure out a way to win." Maybe that means we (think we are) developers.

TopHatFox
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by TopHatFox »

@C40: It means we have the ability to think critically and optimize while in different systems. More importantly, we also have the discipline and support systems to follow through!

Campitor
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Campitor »

Open Developer mode for all wouldn't work for one simple reason - humans are imperfect and their behaviors spread along a curve. Once upon a time the world was "Open Developer mode" but it didn't stay that way for long. Because some people used their Open Developer mode to create systems and devices that were superior to the developer down the road. This allowed the creative developer to flourish in ways that the other developer didn't foresee or had the capacity to emulate - we know how the story goes from there - the Earth was bloody and dangerous. Despite all the rhetoric and conflict in today's world, the planet is a better place than any other time in history with capitalistic systems increasing the standard of living of its citizens.

Corporations are necessary evils because some endeavors are too large and require the concerted effort of large groups working in coordination. And large amounts of resources are needed to implement these large efforts. Who determines which effort is worthy of more resources? Which agency determines how many people should work on a project? Which agency would certify that person X has the knowledge and skill to work on Y project to determine its success? And would these skilled people even put forth the effort since they already got paid? Capitalism is the necessary evil that direct these decisions in the least oppressive way because of the inherent incentives on behavior. Resources are finite and if they don't have a cost associated with them, they will be over exploited and used in the least efficient way. If you make a lousy battery and someone makes a better battery, who will be responsible to tell you that your wasting earth's resources on a product that is crappy? At least in capitalism, the bad battery wouldn't sell and force it's manufacturer to make a better battery or close down which would free up inputs that would have gone to a lousy product.

And the reason the wage payer gets a greater portion of the spoils because he undertakes the larger share of risk when he creates his company - he has to make payroll, pay vendors, pay payroll tax, invest money into maintaining infrastructure, etc. If it was so easy, every worker in the world would quit his job and start a business and become his own boss. The world is getting more complex and is requiring a surge in creativity and intelligence that most people don't want to cultivate. Some folks create Facebook and other just stare at it all day. Some guys design and build motorcycles and others spend all their money driving them around with the best chrome their limited money can buy.

Open Developer mode will be more of the same - some guys will rock on Open Developer mode and others wouldn't know what to do with it. The promise of paradise via Open Developer mode is a pipe dream.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@Brute:

I don't know how deeply I want to get into this argument as it seems to be getting into the weeds from the original topic, but it seems like most people think the whole conversation is just stinking up the joint anyway, so I guess I'll go where it takes us.

I'll start by acknowledging that both libertarianism and socialism are idealized systems. It's not so much about implementing either of them in full so much as what direction we want to move toward along a (variety of) spectrum(s). I would also contend that we are far closer to a libertarian model than a socialist one at the moment, and have been drifting further that direction since at least the 70s.

Attempts at true socialism/communism* internationally have also always been the target of retaliation by the US and other capitalist nations, either through war and open violence (Vietnam, Korea, etc) or cold wars and devastating sanctions (USSR, Cuba, Venezuela, etc) or CIA-sponsored coups (Thailand, Guatemala, etc). Claiming that socialism failed in these circumstances is akin to watching someone sabotage the Wright Brothers' plane over and over again and concluding man will never fly.

*Distinct from social democracies in the European style that we commonly think of as "socialist" but are really capitalist with expanded social safety nets/welfare systems.

I'll also add that what we know about the successes or failures of socialist nations is almost exclusively filtered through media in pro-capitalist nations. This requires no great conspiracy; most people in the US and among our close allies are pro-capitalism. Capitalism, after all, is as American as apple pie. Moreover, most of our traditional media is filtered through big corporations owned by wealthy capitalists. There is also some evidence to suggest that our intelligence agencies and military manipulate available information to control the narrative to one that is pro-America (and thus pro-capitalism), even down to Hollywood movies.

For instance, we've all heard about the bread lines and shortages (hm, what was that about US-sponsored economic sanctions on these countries that really only target the poor...?), but how many know about Cuba's treatment for lung cancer available to all through universal health care, or their 99% literacy rate through free education from elementary school to university?


@C40:

"It totally depends on how you're judging these things, but on those two scales I looked up, Asian Americans are playing on "easiest", and whites second easiest."

That's a good point. Yeah, it's interesting how Asian Americans have a definite history of oppression, beginning with brutal railway labor through things like the Japanese internment camps of WWII, yet they come out on top in a lot of socioeconomic scales.

Strangely enough, white supremacists don't really seem to target them(?). You'd think they'd want to target the ones that were actually getting ahead of them...?


"But... damn-it, I just spent the last 30 years playing the game, and I won. I don't wanna have to start over in a new one."

Interestingly, the average wealth in the US is something like 380k, which seems like a pretty average ERE nugget. Even with something as fanciful as a full redistribution of wealth, ERErs don't really lose.

And that thing about the ability to adapt to any system sounds like something I once said. I agree, if you are smart enough to ERE, you are probably smart enough to thrive in most any system.

I don't know that I consider ERErs Developers, more like video game wizards. :b

Or, what Olaz said.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: White supremacy run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@Campitor:

"Despite all the rhetoric and conflict in today's world, the planet is a better place than any other time in history with capitalistic systems increasing the standard of living of its citizens."

Capitalism is useful in lifting up the standard of living through the industrial and technological revolutions. But is it still the most useful system? Is it still increasing the standard of living for the majority or is it now standing in the way and posing more harm than good through factors like pollution? What happens when we run out of nations of poor people with cheap labor to exploit to keep the whole thing running?

"Who determines which effort is worthy of more resources?"

People decide what they want to work on and work on it.

"Which agency determines how many people should work on a project? Which agency would certify that person X has the knowledge and skill to work on Y project to determine its success?"

Perhaps something like worker-elected councils of peers could run the business. Or they could have business managers who run things, they just don't get paid disproportionately more for the work, because the work of managers doesn't contribute disproportionately more.

"And would these skilled people even put forth the effort since they already got paid?"

We're on an ERE forum, for crying out loud. Is payment the only motivation to do something? Look how much effort I'm putting forward in something I chose to put it into. Something meaningful to me. I assure you I'm not being paid for this...

You seem to be arguing also that capitalism is more efficient in producing better products. I don't see how it is inherently so. OTOH, capitalism leads to tremendous waste in resources with two or more competing firms developing nearly identical products, oftentimes leading to one company going under and all their products filling a landmine anyway.

"And the reason the wage payer gets a greater portion of the spoils because he undertakes the larger share of risk..."

What risk? Is that like the risk the Wall Street banks took in the 2008 crash? Or the risk the auto company execs took when they got bailed out? Or the risks Donald Trump took when all his businesses crashed and burned and he still walked away with billions?

Again, when you make the rules, you don't have risks.

"If it was so easy, every worker in the world would quit his job and start a business and become his own boss."

If only they all had the capital to do so.

"Open Developer mode will be more of the same - some guys will rock on Open Developer mode and others wouldn't know what to do with it."

Certainly, but it would also be fair, and the ones who don't rock wouldn't necessarily have to starve.

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