White supremacy run amok

[m741]

@C40 - I was talking to a friend of mine about protesting in general. My INTJ perspective was that it was a waste of time and energy better devoted elsewhere.

She said that the point of protesting (at least to her) was to demonstrate that you're supporting causes or people you think are marginalized. In this context it was after the election of Trump and her justification of protesting was to let minorities and marginalized know "we're out there, we support you, we will fight for your rights". It wasn't empty words, she's a young Indian woman from the Midwest and I imagine post-9/11 it was not a great time for her.

I think that's the same justification for these Nazi rallies and the counter protests (both sides feel slighted). If you let the Nazis rally more and more, without doing anything, I don't think they go away. I think they say inflammatory stuff, get on the news, and then it looks like everyone out there is a Nazi. I can't imagine being a minority in one of these communities and thinking it's all Nazis out there who see me as subhuman, and that nobody has the guts to stick up for me. I'd feel so isolated.

I still think protesting isn't that efficient. But I understand why it happens.

[Spartan_Warrior]

@m741: Exactly. Thank you, I'm sure that was much more eloquent than I put it at the moment.

[bryan]

Example I just hit, some viral tweet (girl meets boy, is crushing and posts a missed connections to twitter, twitter finds him, she humiliates him because he voted Trump): https://twitter.com/supdeeps/status/895859113040662528

[C40]

Replying to Spartan - It is a good point about the media being there and the coverage already happening. I was thinking more along the lines that the media should ignore them as well and then the huge audience of potential joiners never hear about it.. Bbut of course, nowadays, with how pissed off some group of people will get about any group doing any kind of statement or demonstration, of course the media are going to show it because it will get soaked up.

But now with a big clash and even more and more media coverage, ... now, a thousands of potential white supremacists out there will see descriptions and pictures of people coming to attack a "peaceful white power gathering", including pictures of the supremacists all bloodied up from fights


but,... again... I'm talking more about protest protestors for all kinds of subjects especially mundane ones. I suppose for people who feel that everyone else should adopt their opinions (including on subjects that have zero impact on themselves, like gay folks getting married) protesting protests/gatherings becomes something they must do.

[C40]

Replying to M741 - that does help it make a bit more sense to me.

Of course, then I wonder, "what percentage of those people out there showing that they "support" that marginalized group actually ever do anything that (more directly) supports them? (....like the ol' "Support our Troops" bumper sticker thing...) . But I do see how the protest protesting itself could help quite a bit in that way of helping people (the marginalized group) feel better, and yeah, that's better than nothing.

[Spartan_Warrior]

@bryan: Discriminating against a Trump voter is discriminating by political affiliation, not by white maleness (though I understand the confusion...). Besides which, one's personal preferences in a dating context is a whole different can of worms.

I thought we were talking about oppression. Not that one time someone gave you a mean look.

[Spartan_Warrior]

@C40: "But I do see how the protest protesting itself could help quite a bit in that way of helping people (the marginalized group) feel better, and yeah, that's better than nothing."

Again, in this case, not other "protest-protests", they are literally standing up to hate groups promising physical violence. They are putting their bodies and, at least in one case so far, their lives, on the line in defense against further physical violence toward vulnerable communities.

What more direct action would you suggest?

[C40]

Are you saying that the white supremacist gathering were more of a posse roaming around looking for black people to beat up? (I didn't have the impression that this was that the event was, so if it was, my thoughts so far were without knowing this)

And again, I'm talking mostly about other cases, and you keep using only this one as an example, and using what seem like hyperbolically exaggerated examples.

[bryan]

@spartan, it goes along with what I have been saying in regards to people lumping other people in together, i.e. "if you voted Trump you support white supremacy" or thereabouts. The example was meant to show how some random young woman (being part of some demographic) wielded tremendous power over a bunch of young men (being part of some other demographic). Looks like dictionary oppression to me.

[C40]

Anyways, I should stop posting/reading on these types of threads and do something else.

I suppose one thing is clear - I do feel that I'm very lucky in that I don't (feel I) have a need to be protesting or protesting protests or anything like that. Though maybe a good cause of that is that I'm a bit uninformed about these matters (I'm intentionally out on the sidelines when it comes to politics, activism, and current forms of cultural progress.. or,.. actually, I'm further than the sidelines, I'm not even in the city where the stadium is, I'm out doing my own thing entirely)

[Spartan_Warrior]

@Bryan:

I suggest you check another dictionary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppression

Again, a girl rejecting a guy on Twitter is not even close to oppression. "Tremendous power"? What tremendous power?

Au contraire, this seems like a perfect example of what I mean by most of this perceived "persecution" being total bullshit.

@C40:

Nazis and KKK advocate genocide. It's part of the core of their beliefs. Whether they were literally going to do violence that day doesn't strike me as relevant. It's okay as long as they're just organizing and rallying to do violence later?

Besides which, it isn't at all clear to me that violence wouldn't have happened to someone. If counter-protesters weren't there, the only difference would have been whom the violence was done to. Did I not mention they were at one point surrounding a church with Cornel West and other black activists inside? A mob of KKK and Nazis with torches?

ETA: You don't think that guy who ran people over in his car was going to run somebody over that day, or do something? You don't think he came there with violent intent to begin with? You think the only reason there was violence is because people showed up to protest Nazis? Nothing to do with the violence literally inherent in their ideology?

I agree you're in a privileged place to not have to worry about these issues. What is it do you think that gives you that privilege?

[Spartan_Warrior]

"Are you saying that the white supremacist gathering were more of a posse roaming around looking for black people to beat up?"

Are you saying we should wait until it becomes posses roaming around looking for black people to beat up?

[Dragline]

Let's stop all this speculation and imagination. One of my sons is in Charlottesville about a mile away from where this all happened. What happened in Charlottesville was not a protest. It was a white supremacist rally called "Unite The Right" followed by a domestic terrorist attack. It began with a torch parade last night that looked like something straight out of the 1930s. It was organized with posters bearing both swastikas and people marching with Confederate flags, and representations of people smashing Stars of David with sledgehammers. It was planned for months and was to feature Richard Spencer and about eight other alt-right superstars.

They showed up this morning with an armed militia and others in improvised "riot gear" that included helmets, shields and clubs. They were there to rumble -- they don't live there and don't give a rat's ass about a statue. Things quickly got out of hand and a state of emergency was declared. The terrorist attack followed. People are dead and in the hospital now. There was blood in the streets.

Don't try to say it was something different unless you were actually there. Please include in your speculations the source of your knowledge the next time you post something about "what you think" happened.

But nobody should be surprised given the number of incidents since the election beginning with the alt-right rally in Washington D.C. late last year. Indeed, we talked about this before: https://forum.earlyretirementextreme.co ... mp#p130891

"In the US, the tradition has been for the government to give tacit or unspoken permission in the form of an understanding that it would not do anything to help certain people if you assembled a group and went after them. The history is really ugly with traditions of KKK lynchings and things like the Rosewood Massacre of 1923 and the "Zoot Suit" Riots of 1943. The US version also relies heavily on symbols that can convey a tacit understanding but also provide plausible deniability. Where the symbols are tolerated and widespread, the behavior is tacitly accepted.

I believe this is why the KKK is having a large celebration for the outcome of this election with a victory parade in North Carolina. It IS a victory for them. They are not looking for or expecting a government or a population that necessarily supports their views -- just one that will tacitly look the other way."

And so the POTUS rails against "violence" while refusing to acknowledge the source or nature of the murders being committed.

[Spartan_Warrior]

@Dragline: Yes. Thanks for the insight. Best wishes for your son's safety.

@C40, all:

If in the beginning, when the Hitler bands were still weak, the workers’ parties had answered them blow for blow, there is no doubt their development would have been hampered. On this point we have the testimony of the National Socialist leaders themselves.

Hitler confessed in retrospect: Only one thing could have broken our movement – if the adversary had understood its principle and from the first day had smashed, with the most extreme brutality, the nucleus of our new movement.”

[bryan]

Number one google result for "define oppression": https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oppression: "a : unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power" Though the wikipedia has some snippets that apply? Like one could easily see the "class" of women as being a privileged class in many ways.

Tremendous power is 340k likes and who knows how many impressions and eventual follow-up actions. The amplified signal and reaction and effects is, indeed, oppressing. Like, did this guy do literally anything to deserve such a crucifixion? You can see the same sort of thing on the "opposite side" as well, it's just that social media seems to be more influenced by PC thought than 4chan memery thought (at least my social media bubble, pretty sure there is another part of the social graph that is reversed).

For what it's worth, relevant Margaret Atwood quote: “Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”

[Spartan_Warrior]

Actually, to add to Dragline's point, this...

"In the US, the tradition has been for the government to give tacit or unspoken permission in the form of an understanding that it would not do anything to help certain people if you assembled a group and went after them.

... is another reason for the importance of "counter-protesters". Who else will protect them? Those men in blue (or militarized black) aren't there for the vulnerable communities they execute daily in huge numbers. It's more often true that "cops and klan go hand-in-hand." Sorry, but that is the truth.

@Bryan: A dating rejection because you voted Trump on social media is not oppression no matter how many followers the girl has. It honestly troubles me that you're sticking to your guns on this as if the two are remotely comparable. I'm not going to further indulge this.

I mean, just to be clear, "a crucifixion" is making a tweet saying you don't like a guy because he voted Trump?

And to think I was accused of hyperbole in this thread.

[Dragline]

I have noticed that most "injured white males" are whiners who are better described as "snowflakes" given how they like to apply that moniker to others. But claiming victimhood is what its all about.

For more information, here is what we heard from UVA BEFORE the murder:

"Dear UVA Parents:

Whether your student is already on Grounds or planning to travel to UVA this coming week, you are likely aware of disturbing incidents occurring this weekend related to the “Unite the Right” rally in downtown Charlottesville.

Last night, alt-right protestors carrying torches marched on UVA’s Grounds, attempting to intimidate bystanders and spread their message of intolerance and hate. There were several violent altercations during and after the march, and minor injuries were reported, including one University police officer who was injured while making an arrest.

During today’s “Unite the Right” rally in the city, there were numerous outbreaks of violence between protestors and counter-protestors. Earlier we had encouraged UVA students and community members to avoid the rally and attend UVA-sponsored events instead. However, due to public safety concerns and after a State of Emergency was declared in Virginia, we cancelled previously scheduled events that included academic programming, community discussions in the University Libraries, and athletic events. We are continuing to monitor the developments in downtown Charlottesville and to coordinate with state and local law enforcement during this still-fluid situation. The UVA medical center remains open.

The University of Virginia is a public institution and follows state and federal law regarding the public’s right to access open spaces, including the rights of the marchers who assembled on our Grounds last night. We also support the First Amendment rights to free speech and assembly, including the rights of the protestors and counter-protestors today. At the same time, we know that the ideologies and beliefs expressed by many of the groups that have converged on Charlottesville this weekend contradict our values of diversity, inclusion, and mutual respect. We strongly condemn intimidating and abhorrent behavior intended to strike fear and sow division in our community. Acts of violence are not protected by the First Amendment.

Above all, the safety and well-being of students—of your student—is my foremost concern as president. This is true today, and will continue to be true throughout the school year. We have a strong and well-trained University police force on Grounds, sophisticated security systems, and numerous resources available to ensure the physical health and mental well-being of our students. You will hear more about these resources in the days ahead, as the academic year begins.

This weekend’s protestors will disperse and return to their hometowns soon enough, and we will be glad to see them go. Until they do, at UVA we will remain intently focused on the safety of our students and other UVA family members, and we will continue to uphold our shared values as a community.

Teresa A. Sullivan
President"

[bryan]

@spartan, She has ~3k, I assume much less before the tweet went viral. The number of impressions is what's relevant.

What "two"? I haven't been comparing anything other than the fact that both "sides" do similar attacks. Against women, victim blaming or slut shaming sort of stuff comes to mind. Mansplaining was popular.

Between the two threads, I certainly think SJW/PC is more "run amok" than white supremacy.

edit to respond to your edit?: yes, it's typical middle, high school type social attacks. He was absolutely crucified, just for the fact that he had "voted for Trump".

[C40]

edit to respond to your edit?: yes, it's typical middle, high school type social attacks. He was absolutely crucified, just for the fact that he had "voted for Trump".

Shame they did that to a boy just for voting. Well, I hope he's in a better place now.

[BRUTE]

Is anti-white male bias the cause of their disadvantaged position?

mostly not.