Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

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Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

You're confusing economics with social policy. If you support capital, you're right-wing. If you support labor, you're left-wing. There is no real representative of the left in mainstream US politics, so I understand this confusion. What you would call a liberal, progressive, or Democrat represents a center or center-right ideology focused on saving capitalism from its own contradictions through various government social programs. How socially progressive you think yourself to be isn't really a factor, except insofar as whether you're deluding yourself or not, since most of the systemic issues of oppression that social progressives fight for are very closely linked with those aforementioned inherent contradictions of capitalism.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

You can buy some serious acreage in rural Michigan for the price of a college education.

BRUTE
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by BRUTE »

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:11 pm
You're confusing economics with social policy. If you support capital, you're right-wing. If you support labor, you're left-wing.
lol what

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

I'm looking for the typo or miscommunication in what I said and I'm not seeing it, so I assume you're tritely disagreeing with the content of the statements. Has the left-right spectrum not always been an economic one? Separate from (but very informative as to) the "authoritarian versus libertarian" and "progressive versus conservative" spectrum? I thought this was actually pretty mainstream political spectrum theory.

George the original one
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by George the original one »

IlliniDave wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:10 am
In the spirit of Occam's Razor, Clinton lost because she was a terrible candidate and most of the country were at best wearily indifferent toward the policies of the self-labeled progressives that had been running the show and that she tried to piggyback on.
I'd say that she since won the popular vote, she lost because she didn't concentrate on securing the electoral college. Both candidates were terrible and the one who won the electoral college is now an obnoxious bully president "facing down" another bully in warmongering language.

BRUTE
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by BRUTE »

looks like the term originated during the French revolution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics), where "right wing" meant monarchist, and "left wing" meant republican (i.e. non-monarchist).

it also seems to be applied to pretty much anything, completely losing any meaning it might have had. maybe that's why brute doesn't like the right/left distinction.

IlliniDave
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by IlliniDave »

George the original one wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:26 pm

I'd say that she since won the popular vote, she lost because she didn't concentrate on securing the electoral college.
Six of one, half dozen of the other. He won by winning the critical swing (i.e., purple) states which she largely ignored in both her platform, and her campaigning. I think she understood perfectly well how the electoral system works, what she misunderstood was people. Just $0.02-worth from someone who voted for neither of them.

Dragline
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by Dragline »

BRUTE wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:58 pm
Dragline wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:18 pm
But Prospecting Theory won a Nobel Prize, so I'll take Occam and Nobel over a complex theory that seeks to justify bad behavior.
yea, but "the other side are irredeemable, stupid assholes" triggers brute's bullshit alarm, especially when coming from the side in power.
Dragline wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:18 pm
You did not respond my assertion that your theory does not hold up given the disparity in age-based voting. Do you have a response or do you agree that my factual assertion (and thus falsification of your theory) was correct?
false. brute did respond. Dragline can check above.
People who cozy up to assholes eventually get shat upon themselves. Hope they have a plan B or at least some antibiotics.

Please quote your response, as I did not see any such response.

BRUTE
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by BRUTE »

BRUTE wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:17 pm
it would be interesting to see a breakdown by age and occupation/location. young professionals who have brain-drained to metro areas from their rural spawning points would very likely be pro-Clinton rather than pro-Trump according to brute's theory.

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Jean
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by Jean »

To me right, right/left is just about where they seat in the parliament, and every other uses should be avoided.

IlliniDave
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by IlliniDave »

I wonder if there isn't a pretty even balance of people who have fled the thuggish and bigoted masses they perceive in rural flyover areas for the safety of the big urban areas, and people who have fled the hives of scum and villainy they perceive in the big urban areas to seek sanctuary in the quieter places.

I've always taken right versus left as two ends of the same continuum, and virtually synonymous with republican and democrat in current US politics. In that sense I see them as relative and malleable. I suppose I see libertarian and progressive to be two ends of a different continuum as well, one that is not strictly orthogonal nor parallel/overlapping to right-left, and more rigid in definition. But political erudition is not my strong suit and I tend to infer definitions from everyday usage of the words, understanding that in the current environment it is popular to apply labels to those who don't share our opinions which may put me at odds with formal academic definitions. I leave it at that because my interest is biased towards trying to understand people I am listening to versus what a textbook might say.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

That's interesting about the origin of the "left-right" spectrum. I'm referring to the common current usage based on modern political spectrum tests like the Nolan Chart and its derivatives.

"According to the simplest left–right axis, communism and socialism are usually regarded internationally as being on the left, opposite conservatism and capitalism on the right."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum

Duly noted that this is not necessarily the assumed meaning.

RealPerson
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by RealPerson »

IlliniDave wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:55 pm
George the original one wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:26 pm
I think she understood perfectly well how the electoral system works, what she misunderstood was people.
Her ambition and arrogance caused her to lose the election. She never even visited Wisconsin, obviously taking that state for granted. People don't like to be taken for granted. You are correct that she doesn't understand people. It is hard to see little people from so high up on a pedestal. I still find it hard to believe that she lost to such a terrible non-establishment candidate. Now there's an accomplishment.

BRUTE
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by BRUTE »

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:15 am
That's interesting about the origin of the "left-right" spectrum. I'm referring to the common current usage based on modern political spectrum tests like the Nolan Chart and its derivatives.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political ... _chart.svg

on which Libertarianism is centrist, relative to the left/right axis. on other charts on there, there are explicit "left" and "right" libertarians.

analogous to calling brute "right", brute could call Spartan_Warrior a fascist - because he's opposed to Libertarianism, and Fascism is on the other end of the spectrum. all those fascist ideologies like Communism, Socialism, National Socialism.. oh, those fascists disagree amongst each others about who to genocide? details.

point being, with specific/political enough definitions, etymology can be offensive.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I just counted, and I have lived in 23 different residences in the Midwestern "purple" state of Michigan, running the gamut from extremely rural woods&water or farm country, highly affluent suburban, working class, underclass/immigrant gritty big city, world-class ivory tower uber-liberal University center, etc. I have also always been the sort of person who hung out with the drama girls, the burn-outs, the crew neck sweater A.P. track kids, the cheerleaders, the farm Christians and the nerds.

If you had talked to me when I was 17 and felt oppressed due to very minor persecution (and extreme boredom) I suffered due to being smarter than the boys in my science classes in the rural-turning-suburban bastion of Young Republican ideology where I graduated from high school, my take would have been more like that expressed by Dragline. However, since my experience was that my parents were early-issue version urban yuppies, and my mother was manic about interior decoration and my father was tolerant of commute, they moved out further and further from the big city center throughout my childhood, before finally circling a bit back and landing in Ann Arbor, and I have chosen to inhabit all of these sorts of realms in the years since, as an adult among other adults, my take now differs. Also, the fact that while moving around in this manner, I have been in relationships with men running the gamut from working-class-upbringing social/financial conservative African-American (he would say "Black man") to affluent background liberal-minded PhD immigrant Muslim (he would say "Green man"), to red-headed hipster musician (literally whitest white man) only one generation off the farm, etc. etc. this has also influenced my perspective towards "Ain't that simple."

It is useless to try to apply any sort of simple dichotomy to such a complex system of systems. For instance, my BF just purchased an oddly shaped parcel of land in a part of the state that is clearly Red. The parcel includes 1/30th of 100 ft of great lake frontage, 1 skinny acre of main highway access just across the highway from the lake, and 10 acres of backwoods attached to the skinny acre. So, at one end of his property, his neighbor just built a 7 million dollar secondary residence on the water. Stone's throw from there the property values drop to very middle-middle class, and at the back of his property, there are people living off of narrow, gated, over-grown two-tracks only accessible by snowmobile or ATV. So, there is as much socio-economic diversity as in a big city, but at a lower human population density with more proximate and literal boundaries. So, everybody knows everybody, and everybody has to exhibit at least rough respect (as opposed to altruism/paternalism!!) for all others, including the adult male bear who also is known to inhabit this range, and the cougar who is rumored to inhabit this range, and none of them are inclined towards voting in favor of funding any sort of major governmental program of any kind for very simple, yet highly varied, reasons in clear alignment with self-interest.

IOW, it is not any characteristics associated or correlated with rural residence that is causative of the red/blue split. It is the differences caused by the fact of rural vs. urban residence that causes the split. It is more like the power struggle between the Latin literate clergy and the minor feudal landlords in previous human eras/realms, which used to be moderated by first son inheriting the land, second son being sent to be educated by clergy/scholastic, third son commissioned to military, and 4th son sent off to seek fortune in Jamaican realm of childless Uncle.

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Ego
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by Ego »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:48 am
IOW, it is not any characteristics associated or correlated with rural residence that is causative of the red/blue split. It is the differences caused by the fact of rural vs. urban residence that causes the split.

I disagree. There is one glaring characteristic that we see playing out right here in the Trump/Political Correctness/Supremacist threads that is also present in the rural/urban, red/blue split.

Xenophobia vs Xenophilia: Those who fear or distrust people different from themselves versus those who express affection for people who are different. Xenophobes exclude themselves from differences while xenophiliacs move toward them.

Ironically, I needed to step away from the forum for a while because I became fed up dealing with those whose primary reason for seeking financial independence is to get away - not just from those who are different - but from EVERYONE.

They say, "Hell is other people," and intend to retreat as far as possible from everyone else as the world crumbles. The more they remove their own skin from the game, the easier it becomes to vote for protest candidates and adopt poses of detached, theoretical, faux-open-mindedness.

With each passing day the Propper Paradox becomes more important.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

7Wannabe5
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Ego wrote:Ironically, I needed to step away from the forum for a while because I became fed up dealing with those whose primary reason for seeking financial independence is to get away - not just from those who are different - but from EVERYONE.
Yeah, lately I am leaning towards the Libertarian half of my Libertarian/Sesame Street Socialist identity, because I do want to get away from EVERYONE, including all of the members of my Running-with-Scissors-cast-of-a-Wes-Anderson-film extended family. Also, I am a bit of a burnt-out case from my gig of substitute teaching in the gritty mix of the city.

I am quite familiar with the Popper Paradox. It sounds good. I have quoted it myself on occasion, but what does it really mean in application?

When my son was a toddler we lived in graduate student housing. One day in the communal sandbox, he picked up a stick and repeatedly hit a little Asian girl over the head saying "Ugly eyes. Ugly eyes." I was shocked, appalled, angered. I apologized to the girl's mother, picked up my own child, marched into our apartment without saying a word, plopped him on his bed, shut the door, and left him there until I had calmed down. Then I talked to him about never hitting ANY other people over the head with a stick. I did not have a discussion with him on the topic of xenophobic/tribal tendencies in the human species exhibited in the very young in the form of stranger anxiety/aggression, but I did have a talk with myself on that topic while I calmed myself down, and I could certainly have such a discussion with him now that he is 28 rather than 2 years old.

Last year, I was teaching a very low-income, very ethnically diverse group of 4th graders. In order to maintain anything resembling order in such a situation, I have to come out of the box when I first address the children with very clearly delineated expectations for their behavior. First offense-Warning. Second offense-Name on the Board. Third Offense-Office. Halfway through the day I was feeling bad (once again) because every child whose name was on the board or was sitting on the bench in the office was either an African-American boy or a boy recently immigrated from some village in Yemen which would be not unlike 1930s Appalachia in America. I was trying to be patient with another difficult child, an African-American girl who was constantly seeking attention. She got into a bit of a scuffle with one of the African-American boys whose name was already on the board, and then she showed me a note upon which was scrawled "Ugly Bich Nigga" and told me that the boy had given it to her. Unfortunately, I had good reason to believe that she had written the note herself in order to get the boy in trouble, and in order to gain my sympathy. There were 25 other children in the room needing my attention at the moment, and some slim possibility that maybe I could teach a few of them enough mathematics to pass a basic competency exam before the bell rang and I tried to stop them from running down the stairs to eat their free government lunch of chicken nuggets and shrunk-wrapped grapes.

My point being that "tolerance" is not just some magical property that can be invoked from the nether. Make me a map. Show me the diagram inclusive of stocks and flows that makes it possible to flow enough resources into our systems to make it a reality. And after you have performed that task, please make it more clear what you wish to see happen when intolerance is not tolerated. I am not strong enough to pick up most other humans and plop them on a bed, and shut the door, and then calm my own anger, and then talk to them about not hitting other humans over the head with a stick. If they are 10 years old, I have to send them to the office. If they are 20 years old, I have to call a police officer to take them to the jail. All of these processes, all of these actions, all of these verbs which are so easy to type, require resources to fulfill. We are running out of resources. We are running out of time. I am currently numb out of patience.

Both sides are saying some things that are true. The true thing that the Red side is saying is that you can't create a culture of liberal tolerance without some balance of conservative order.

black_son_of_gray
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by black_son_of_gray »

I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world because they'd never expect it.

Jack Handey

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Ego
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by Ego »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:13 am
I am quite familiar with the Popper Paradox. It sounds good. I have quoted it myself on occasion, but what does it really mean in application?

And after you have performed that task, please make it more clear what you wish to see happen when intolerance is not tolerated.
Yeah, it is hard when it is not black and white, or when people use the shadows as cover. That's when role models can be useful.

Fortunately, we don't have to look far for one. Dragline is offering a master class over there in the Separatist thread.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Human beings are systems which live within larger ecosystems and social systems. Maslow's Hierarchy provides a weak diagram for possible motivations for observable human behaviors. "Justice" is an emergent quality of human social systems. "Tolerance" is not quite in the same category. Lady Justice is blindfolded and holds scales and a sword. What would the statue of Lady Tolerance look like? What I was trying to convey is that in my weak intuitive opinion there are some aspects of "tolerance" and "intolerance" that are emergent or observable from ecosystem perspective, but not in alignment with the suggestion BRUTE made based on the Maslow model OR the Prospecting Theory that Dragline suggested. I think it has to do with the different ways human males express dominance.

I am probably not explaining very well, but it has to do with why my uber-liberal-left-affluent lover told me that his wife called my African-American lover who is interested in permaculture "the gardener." To put the matter in simplest terms, I now believe that ALL human males are sometimes thugs and bullies, so I am not very interested in politics. We don't have to survive.

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