Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

brute is quite convinced that females are 100% as prone to being bullies as males
Maybe that is due to the fact that in the course of the years that defines the generational divide between us, bullying has become more widely defined to include verbal taunting and overt social exclusionary behaviors, whereas it used to be more like somebody strong-arming you for your lunch money or holding you upside down by the ankles and dunking your head in a toilet. IOW, what in my day would have been called "mean girl" behavior is now considered to be a form of "bully" behavior. OTOH, I did suffer from having snowballs whipped at me on a regular basis by a skinny little girl jock when I was in the 7th grade and already looked about 19, but that was more like an annoying bug that I had grown too dignified to squash. The cool tough Catholic School girls (like Madonna) would sometimes steal my sexy, physically-intelligent, burn-out BFs from me, but I didn't care that much and would just quickly move on to attempting to seduce my 10th grade English teacher (looked kind of like Barry Gibb) instead. My burn-out high school speed-skater BFs grew up, maybe joined the marines to get clean, and chose to vote for Trump last election. That's why I get it intuitively. Not crying babies. Coyote-style dominant is the best I can describe it.

Riggerjack
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by Riggerjack »

Oh, I wasn't going for the "girls are just as mean as boys" angle. I was going for humans are thuggish, angle.

But I am old enough to associate bullying with the same overt physical acts 7w5 describes. I am personally far from innocent,here. I grew up bullied, I turned into a bully when I had the chance, and then met the guys I bullied in school afterward, and had to apologize. That was a good start to introspection.

It's been my experience that most men who haven't been bullies, either never had the chance,or were so socially adept that they worked "mean girl" levels of bullying, often, they were the guys next to the bully, egging him on.

So I wasn't taking it from a moralistic stand point of "girls can be mean too". But from a perspective that most people are absolute shit at some point in their lives, and some of us try to better ourselves, but that hardly erases our culpability for the shit we did when we were less civil.

Plus, yeah, every once in a while I do run into a thuggish woman. Certainly not often enough to raise the example in this context, though.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Ego wrote: Xenophobia vs Xenophilia: Those who fear or distrust people different from themselves versus those who express affection for people who are different. Xenophobes exclude themselves from differences while xenophiliacs move toward them.

Chad wrote:I agree. Though, this seems to be a subsection to larger reason of those who accept/adapt/like change vs. those that don't accept/adapt/like change. Different people are just another form of change.
I would note that the reason why many members of the aspirational class were shocked by the results of this election is because this is behavior that they also exhibit. Not much stranger-danger risk when you hop from Ann Arbor to Austin to Berkeley to Amherst. Otherwise, they would have had some sort of clue that there was no way white working class Midwestern men were going to vote for Hillary. Ted Nugent says "pussy" right out loud, and so does Trump, and so do those guys ALL THE TIME...unless by some tragic misfortune one of them found himself with somebody like Hillary as his boss for a week or two before getting himself fired on purpose.

They're not sexist like the alt-right kids (or even like a pompous-ass frat-boy like Trump), because they like females because they did get laid in high school. They're sexist in the sense that they value females like they value baggies full of Acapulco Gold. It's a very weak alliance, and was only made possible because of idiot level blinders and aspirational class/working class boundaries which are constructed by school district property tax rates.

NOTE: It is likely that I somehow morphed Ted Nugent with Kurt Vonnegut at an important stage of my sexual development, so that is why I am generally in favor of people saying or typing "pussy" freely, even if it makes me barf in my mouth more than a little bit when Trump does it.
Last edited by 7Wannabe5 on Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Chad
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by Chad »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:27 am
I would note that the reason why many members of the aspirational class were shocked by the results of this election is because this is behavior that they also exhibit. Not much stranger-danger risk when you hop from Ann Arbor to Austin to Berkeley to Amherst. Otherwise, they would have had some sort of clue that there was no way white working class Midwestern men were going to vote for Hillary. Ted Nugent says "pussy" right out loud, and so does Trump, and so do those guys ALL THE TIME...unless by some tragic misfortune one of them found himself with somebody like Hillary as his boss for a week or two before getting himself fired on purpose.

They're not sexist like the alt-right kids (or even like a pompous-ass frat-boy like Trump), because they like females because they did get laid in high school. They're sexist in the sense that they value females like they value baggies full of Acapulco Gold. It's a very weak alliance, and was only made possible because of idiot level blinders and aspirational class/working class boundaries which are constructed by school district property tax rates.
It is true there is a divide, but it's not one way. The working class doesn't want to hangout with the aspirational class either. I have friend I grew up with who works in the racing industry (cars). I have been to his house for a fair amount of parties and I'm the only aspirational class person there out of 20-30 people. It's a struggle to find a subject to talk about. I definitely couldn't talk about politics, economics, and foreign policy, as both just resulted in anger and talking points from them they didn't actually know anything about.

Part of it was the same problem mentioned in previous threads. In order to talk to them about these subjects, I would have to educate them in basic theories before we even started the hard part of the discussion.

Were they sexist or racist? Definitely not blatantly, but they would also be the first people to complain about a black athlete for doing something white athletes do. So, while they wouldn't tell a woman or minority they couldn't do something because of what/who they are, they also hold them to a higher standard. A prime example is flying a Confederate flag vs. someone kneeling for the national anthem.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Chad:

True. That's what I am trying to explain. They don't want what the nerds with money have, because a nerd with money is still a nerd. Unless the nerd also happens to be an attractive female. They will vote for somebody like Bill Clinton because he started working class and clearly talked dirty in semi-private all the time.

Anyways, when I am defending the likes of Ted Nugent who I listened to when I was 14, I am really defending the likes of Kurt Vonnegut Jr. who I read when I was 14, because he typed "pussy" right out loud too. Kindness is a virtue, whereas freedom of speech is a shared right.

Also, Herman Koch in "The Dinner" pegged what I mean about the aspirational class being as likely to revert to the dark side of loyalty/tribalism and thuggery as any other class.
“These were the ways and moves of … of a predator. The thought popped into my mind without my being able to stop it. ‘Of an athlete’ was what I had meant to say – to think. A sportsman.”
― Herman Koch, The Dinner

BRUTE
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by BRUTE »

Chad wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:56 am
Ego wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:09 pm
Xenophobia vs Xenophilia: Those who fear or distrust people different from themselves versus those who express affection for people who are different. Xenophobes exclude themselves from differences while xenophiliacs move toward them.
I agree. Though, this seems to be a subsection to the larger reason of those who accept/adapt/like change vs. those that don't accept/adapt/like change. Different people are just another form of change.
could Chad (or Ego for that matter) expand on this?

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Ego
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by Ego »

BRUTE wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:18 pm
Chad wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:56 am
Ego wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:09 pm
Xenophobia vs Xenophilia: Those who fear or distrust people different from themselves versus those who express affection for people who are different. Xenophobes exclude themselves from differences while xenophiliacs move toward them.
I agree. Though, this seems to be a subsection to the larger reason of those who accept/adapt/like change vs. those that don't accept/adapt/like change. Different people are just another form of change.
could Chad (or Ego for that matter) expand on this?
Sure. Xenophobia is largely a learned response. Those with a diverse peer group when they are young become adults who do not subconsciously react negatively to those who are different. Those who grew up in a monoculture end up with the implicit bias that all the SJW types are screaming about.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... al/263785/

You and I are hard determinists, right? So, how does a hard determinist deal this?

The answer, or course, is that we need to eliminate them. Eliminate white people. Black people too. Brown people. Yellow people. Get rid of 'em all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfxL_wuYtSg

7Wannabe5
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

...the behavior of a living organism is determined. However, rather than being determined by outside forces, it is determined by the organism's own structure- as structure formed by a succession of autonomous structural changes. Hence, the behavior of a living organism is both determined and free.

...

From these generalizations emerges the important insight that social networks exhibit the same general principles as biological networks. There is an organized ensemble with internal rules that generates both the network itself and its boundary (a physical boundary in biological networks, and a cultural boundary in social networks.) Each social system- a political party, a business organization, a city, or a school - is characterized by the need to sustain itself in a stable but dynamic mode, permitting new members, materials, or ideas to enter the structure and become part of the system. These newly entered elements will generally be transformed by the internal organization (i.e., the rules) of the system.

The observation that the "bio-logic," or pattern of organization, of a simple cell is the same as that of an entire social structure is highly nontrivial. It suggests a fundamental unity of life, and hence also the need to study and understand all living structures from such a unifying perspective.

"The Systems View of Life: A Unifying Vision", Capra and Luisi

7Wannabe5
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Ego said: Sure. Xenophobia is largely a learned response. Those with a diverse peer group when they are young become adults who do not subconsciously react negatively to those who are different. Those who grew up in a monoculture end up with the implicit bias that all the SJW types are screaming about.
I grew up in an extreme monoculture and purposefully sought out a more diverse environment at puberty. I think human beings are more or less programmed to seek diversity at puberty because we are an out-breeding species. A few generations of mating with your first cousin in the village and some not likely to promote survival of individual characteristics will emerge. However, this is in direct conflict with a desire to preserve those who do most resemble you genetically. This is also the essential conflict between the erotic and the affectionate aspects of love.

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Ego
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by Ego »

Nonetheless, people who want to argue that racism is natural have tried to buttress their position with evidence that racism is in some sense biological. For example: studies have found that when whites see black faces there is increased activity in the amygdala, a brain structure associated with emotion and, specifically, with the detection of threats.

Well, whatever power that kind of argument ever had--which wasn't much, since the fact that a psychological reaction has a biological correlate doesn't tell you whether the reaction is innate--it has even less power now. In a paper that will be published in the Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience, Eva Telzer of UCLA and three other researchers report that they've performed these amygdala studies--which had previously been done on adults--on children. And they found something interesting: the racial sensitivity of the amygdala doesn't kick in until around age 14.

What's more: once it kicks in, it doesn't kick in equally for everybody. The more racially diverse your peer group, the less strong the amygdala effect. At really high levels of diversity, the effect disappeared entirely.
Fourteen. Early bloomer?

7Wannabe5
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Ego wrote:Fourteen. Early bloomer?
Yeah, just like Juliet. Found the boy-next-door sort of bland, so I would hitchhike to the roller rink 10 miles closer in to the city center where the somewhat more ethnic-ey badder boys lived. Almost 30 years later, I was reminiscing with an African-American lover who was just a couple years older than me, and we determined that he would have been skating at the same time at the roller rink where no white girl who lived in my suburb would have ever been found. Jewish girl, maybe.

The amygdala is involved in sexual arousal, snugly sandwiched in with fear and aggression. You have to be more than a bit of a natural risk taker to grow up sheltered white girl in post-riot apartheid Detroit and ever find yourself in bed with 6'5" African-American man who does 500 push-ups every day. Maybe kind of like surfing.

BRUTE
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by BRUTE »

Ego wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:00 pm
Xenophobia is largely a learned response. Those with a diverse peer group when they are young become adults who do not subconsciously react negatively to those who are different. Those who grew up in a monoculture end up with the implicit bias that all the SJW types are screaming about.
that study seems to confirm exactly the way brute thinks racism (or any other type of xenophobia) works. it's merely adaptation.

in this sense, humans growing up in a monoculture aren't "inherently racist", they simply haven't experienced looking at black humans enough to get used to the idea.

this maybe even explains the old cliche that, to some humans, "all asian humans look alike". if a human had never seen an asian person before, certainly the distinctive visual differences would stand out, and this human would have to build new reference points for differentiating between different asian humans. the human had to learn how to distinguish other humans, period, as a child.

so if xenophobia is not a symptom of inherent moral inferiority, but merely a lack of exposure, doesn't that almost solve the entire thing? just like weak humans could lift weights, learn a foreign language, learn math, learn riding a bicycle.. it's merely an acquired skill.

it would mean that in the long term, xenophobia would destroy itself. all xenophobes who came into contact with their respective xenos would quickly lose their phobia due to exposure. the only way to stay a xenophobe would be to isolate in a monoculture, where there could be very little contact with the xeno, and therefore, likely, few problems.

this is pretty much how brute thinks it works, and the study doesn't surprise him at all.

what is annoying is that many on the left have a completely different understanding of xenophobia. they seem to treat it as the new original sin, just like zealous christians used to treat gays and butt sex. turns out, exposure gets rid of the xenophobia pretty quickly, and now all humans in the west are pretty much used to gays and butt sex.

but this weird moralizing and frothing at the mouth over other humans who simply lack exposure.. very counter productive. if brute saw many weak humans, would condemning them morally for their weakness really be the best way to get them to lift weights?

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Ego
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by Ego »

BRUTE wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:21 pm
but this weird moralizing and frothing at the mouth over other humans who simply lack exposure.. very counter productive. if brute saw many weak humans, would condemning them morally for their weakness really be the best way to get them to lift weights?
I'm glad we agree that there is a weakness. That, after all, is what was being argued over there.... whether the weakness exists at all.

With that out of the way, we can move on to what can be done for those who, as you say, lack exposure. Is it counter productive for the person who lacks exposure? Perhaps. Maybe they will retreat further into their monoculture. Who knows, maybe they'll gain a bit of insight into their own inner workings. Maybe they'll think twice next time.

But that's not how societal change really happens. We know how that occurs. Think about the fourteen-year-old with the amygdala that is just now coming on line. Or the twenty-year-old who grew up with a semi-diverse peer group and an amygdala that could tilt him in either direction depending on his environment. Might he witness the consequences faced by those who lack exposure? Could witnessing those consequences nudge him ever so slightly away from the same path?

The majority of my generation have amygdalas that are very different from those of iGen and Millennials. It is one of their most beautiful characteristics. We need to protect them from those who want to change them. Many try to protect by sheltering, which, for obvious reasons does not work in this case. It is the exact opposit of what is needed.

In this case, the only way to protect is to exhibit the ugly truth for all to see.

BRUTE
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by BRUTE »

whose amygdalae are beautiful? and who wants to change them?

7Wannabe5
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

If racism (or any other 'ism) could be erased by simple exposure then how does one explain Southern Plantation culture? In the movie "The Warriors", the mixed-race Warriors gang was still a gang. Every gang has a leader and owns a piece of turf. Skin color is just a stupid-easy marker.

I have never (thankfully!) been exposed to military training, but it is my understanding that part of the process is to break down sense of individuality and form sense of band of brothers. Once a Marine, always a Marine. When humans engage in warfare, play at sports, or form gangs, they wear uniforms that help with identification of friend vs. foe. The Civil War in America was a "brother against brother" war. When an individual who lives in the woods off a two-track rut in rural Michigan drapes a Confederate flag around his mailbox, that does not necessarily mean that he lacks exposure to African-Americans.

Have you seen the movie "8 Mile? " That's a real thing. The band "38 Special" was part of a free concert series on the Detroit riverfront I wandered into recently, and there were very few African-Americans in attendance. Reason being that Southern Rock is a signifier just like a Confederate flag, just like a white boy wearing his pants drooping down past his underwear.

The 6th grade boys in the low income, very diverse groups I teach often break into scuffles. Sometimes the fights will break out along racial or religious lines. Sometimes not. One day when I was giving a mini-lecture on the topic of how fighting interferes with learning, one very bright little bystander girl simply stated "Yes, but 6th graders like to fight more than they like to learn math."

On the weekend that the football game takes place between Michigan and Ohio State, individuals who "like to fight" and "like to learn math" will often wear sweatshirts or fly flags to identify themselves as rivals. Many forget that the nicknames of these teams are the same nicknames used by the opposing forces in the war for the possession of Toledo in 1835-1836, perhaps because it was a fairly bloodless and brief affair, not unlike a football game.

The most brilliant work on the topic of how humans form 'isms I have ever read is Diane Johnson's "Le Marriage" and "Le Divorce." These novels can be read, and were once mis-branded, as a variety of chick-lit or maybe the script for a standard romantic comedy, but they are really a dark exploration of the human tendencies towards tribal affiliation. The author purposefully chooses American and French for the identities of the engaged, married, and then divorced couple and their extended family/friend groups, because no initial known core or historical conflict. We are the same, yet different, how delightful! Then bit by bit, tension by tension, breaks it down.

Sometimes humans like to fight more than they like to learn math. Resources are growing tight. Humans fly colors when they are getting ready to fight. Some human gangs are composed of humans with different color skin who wear the same uniform or fly the same signifiers. Being able to sit in a quiet orderly classroom and learn math in a room full of other diverse humans is a luxury made possible by affluence. Peak affluence occurred somewhere between 1958 and 1978. Sesame Street was first broadcast in 1969, and it took a generation for the meme to penetrate as far as it did. Unfortunately, I believe the situation is not likely to improve.

BRUTE
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by BRUTE »

brute isn't sure that southern plantation culture classifies as xenophobic. reportedly, tons of slave owners had sex, affairs, and even children black slaves. black slaves worked in the household and watched children.

that doesn't strike brute as particularly fearful (phobic) behavior towards blacks.

on the other hand, brute isn't claiming that xenophobia is the only thing that can lead to immoral behavior or tribalism.

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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by bryan »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:28 am
On the weekend that the football game takes place between Michigan and Ohio State, individuals who "like to fight" and "like to learn math" will often wear sweatshirts or fly flags to identify themselves as rivals. Many forget that the nicknames of these teams are the same nicknames used by the opposing forces in the war for the possession of Toledo in 1835-1836, perhaps because it was a fairly bloodless and brief affair, not unlike a football game.
One of the scariest things in my life has been going to Alabama/Auburn or Alabama/Tennessee games. It's probably the closest I'll ever come to being on the receiving end of violent racism.. Luckily there's always enough sane people around to prevent lynchings or other things carrying on too far (not always the case at other games elsewhere in the world).

7Wannabe5
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

BRUTE wrote:brute isn't sure that southern plantation culture classifies as xenophobic. reportedly, tons of slave owners had sex, affairs, and even children black slaves. black slaves worked in the household and watched children.
Right. There are two white individuals over the age of 70 in my urban acquaintance who have black children or black grandchildren whom they appear to love dearly, who also rather freely make use of the N word in conversation. It is clear within the context that they use it that the N word does not apply to any black person, just a member of the sub-group of black people who might instantly steal a bike off your porch if you don't lock it up. OTOH, in their opinion, the green people might harbor terrorists, and almost certainly collude to commit welfare fraud, but it is tolerable to live next door to them because at least they do not tend towards stealing bikes. Likely because their religion does not permit the use of drugs and alcohol and the whole chopping off the hand at the wrist kind of things they still do to each other.

Of course, this is in a neighborhood where Appalachian heritage white kids are still called "crackers" on the playground, and where a young woman working at the corner pizza place laughed and apologized for confusing me with another customer by saying "Sorry, all Polish women look alike, right? That's why I dye my hair darker." I never fully grokked why the expression "dumb blonde" was stereotype applied to my rough phenotype until I heard children who look like me struggling to learn to speak English.

At the time just prior to the Civil War, there were a good number of African heritage individuals who worked seasonally on the farms around Detroit, because close to the border of Canada, where slavery had already been outlawed. There was a very active Quaker community in the flatter drained swamp farmland closer to the Ohio border, and there are still tunnels from the underground railroad days in the basements of some of the historic homes in the county where my very white, white children's red-headed father's family settled and farmed. There is a lake in this county that bears the same name as my kids, and their ancestor that settled on the lake became so friendly with some members of the native Pottawatomie tribe he gave his son a native name. My children also have cousins of African-American heritage because my mother-in-law had an affair with a black man who attended her small religious college on a scholarship back in the 1960s. She was forced to give the baby up for adoption, but was reunited with him and his kids about 10 years ago. My radical Vietnam War protestor paternal uncle married a woman of Filipino heritage, and so did my third sister, so my extremely white, white kids and I have a bunch of very near relatives who look vaguely Hawaiian or Hispanic or "What are you?"

Anyways, in the memoir of an early white settler in the realm of the city where Henry Ford built his museum, which is now majority Muslim immigrant population, I read about an interesting historical event. A beautiful young black woman who was the pampered mistress of her white Southern owner, was successfully brought to freedom in a rough encampment in Canada near Detroit, but then she attempted to run back to her life of greater affluence as a slave, and this caused a great disturbance within the black community. Humans are complex creatures. History is a complex narrative. Huge error in judgment to think you know any human's story until you get to know him or her. (Also, I think if my very pale son was made to pay reparations to one of his darker skinned cousins, they would probably both decide to go out and spend the money on buying some beers for some Brazilian heritage girls.)

7Wannabe5
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Bryan wrote:One of the scariest things in my life has been going to Alabama/Auburn or Alabama/Tennessee games.
I dated a black guy who played for Alabama in the 70s. He used the phrase "treated like a piece of meat" to describe the experience. OTOH, he also described his sexual experience during that era as "I used to just hit it, hit it, hit it, hit it, hit it,...but then one day I decided that I wanted a girlfriend.", so I guess the whole piece of meat thing has it's pros and cons.

Another lover once texted me "Whatcha doin" and since I was indulging in some treat while watching endless episodes of some British television production, I replied "Pudding and BBC", to which he responded "lol- Well then, I guess you don't need me."

My Persian-American ex came from an affluent family in Tehran. His father was self-made orphaned-early, and his mother was a spoiled wealthy girl. The older spinster sisters of his father did all the housekeeping, but gave their brother's young bride a bit of grief. Her first child was a girl, so not good enough, but when she gave birth to my ex, the aunts finally offered their approval, so the nickname my ex was given by his mother at birth was "The Golden Penis." Therefore, my advice to all females everywhere is that no matter what the skin-color, religion or ethnic heritage, do not allow yourself to become involved with any man whose mother nicknamed him anything remotely like that.

BRUTE
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Re: Choo choo - all aboard the Trump Train

Post by BRUTE »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:22 am
all Polish women look alike
well, there are, uhh, certain.. qualities? that many of them share.

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