Where do "Rights" come from?

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Riggerjack
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Riggerjack »

In an earlier response you stated that property confiscation was not an asymmetric exercise of power.
Ahah! I just caught this when I reread your post. My point wasn't that there was no imbalance of power my point was that nobody gained a right, without assuming a responsibility. That if you want more rights, more power, you gain it by assuming responsibility.

Riggerjack
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Riggerjack »

I want to say again, I'm making no moral claims here. I'm talking about a model for how things work, I'm not saying any of this is right or moral.

I got out of leadership roles specifically because I found it morally abhorrent, if done right.

Campitor
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Campitor »

Riggerjack wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:14 pm
My point wasn't that there was no imbalance of power my point was that nobody gained a right, without assuming a responsibility. That if you want more rights, more power, you gain it by assuming responsibility.
I guess I did a poor job communicating what I was trying to say. I never meant to imply that rights don't come with responsibility or as rights expand there isn't a corollary rise in responsibility. What I was trying to say is these responsibilities can be passed on and or delegated to other individuals or groups in such a way that the consequences of a bad decision or execution of an expanded privilege/right isn't felt as strongly by the originator of the bad idea/abuse than it's intended/unintended victim. This unequal distribution of pain allows some to wield rights more freely or exercise more of them because they are isolated or buffered from any negative consequences.

A POTUS can start a immoral/unwise war - certainly being POTUS comes with a boatload of responsibility - the consequence of a bad decision to go to war will cost him an election and cost hundred of soldiers their lives - unequal consequences which allows POTUS to be...hopefully...more objective in their decisions to go to war. Unequal outcomes sometimes is a good thing but it's certainly abused. And this is what I was trying to say - not all responsibility is equal because its consequences aren't felt equally - ergo some enjoy more rights than others despite the added responsibility.

Riggerjack
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Riggerjack »

I thought this was going to be a nuts and bolts discussion of rights and where they come from. So I have been trying to break that down into first principals.

But, this dinosaur seemed to be looking for a chance to demonstrate that "God" is a trigger word for him. And campitor is talking about rights, morality, and equality. And very few others had much to say at all.

I thought I was keeping this thread on topic, but I'm starting to think I've been thread jacking. I'll try to stop that.

Riggerjack
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Riggerjack »

What I was trying to say is these responsibilities can be passed on and or delegated to other individuals or groups in such a way that the consequences of a bad decision or execution of an expanded privilege/right isn't felt as strongly by the originator of the bad idea/abuse than it's intended/unintended victim. This unequal distribution of pain allows some to wield rights more freely or exercise more of them because they are isolated or buffered from any negative consequences.
Of course they can. That's the whole point.

Look, if Bill makes a deal with Bob, where Bill will take care if his physical security in exchange for his plowing Bill's fields and tending Bill's farm, Bill can then make a deal with Peter to provide that physical security, in exchange for a small share of Bob's farming. Bill has to choose the right Bob for farm productivity, and the right Peter for security. If Bob's farm gets raided, Bill's out his share of the farm, maybe out Bob and Peter, too.

You describe this as:
This unequal distribution of pain allows some to wield rights more freely or exercise more of them because they are isolated or buffered from any negative consequences.
I describe this as a huge setback. Bill has to find and bend a new Bob and a new Peter. I mean, sure their sacrifice may be greater than Bill's, but it didn't work out great for Bill either.

That doesn't mean it was a bad deal for Bill, Bob, or Peter. It means the people and/or circumstances were wrong for that deal to work out well.

Choosing the right people for the right positions, is the beginnings of leadership, and it starts when you are in Bob's or Peter's position.

Dragline
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Dragline »

I couldn't let this discussion of Bob and Peter go without invoking the "Peter Principle", which states that people rise to their level of incompetence. Meaning, the right people often don't end up in the positions they are best suited for, especially if they are related or otherwise affiliated by extraneous characteristics. The "spoils system" is probably more natural than a system based on competence or responsibility.

Riggerjack
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Riggerjack »

The Peter principal is a fine example of looking at hierarchies from the bottom.

Peter seems incompetent. And he very well could be. But he serves the purpose to which he was promoted, well enough to stay there. There are good reasons to choose an incompetent underling.

He makes a great test when you put someone you *think* is competent under him.

He may be more effective as an incompetent manager than an incompetent worker. This is important if you can't get rid of him for some reason.

Incompetents are rarely unaware of their incompetence. Having someone insecure on your team can be useful. Easier to leverage compliance from the insecure, and more secure people bend easier when in the presence of others who have bent.

It's always a good idea to know who is first to go when a sacrifice needs to be made.

All these aside from the normal excuses you mentioned.

Having weak team members lowers efficiency and morale, so you don't want many of them, but they are great for raising morale at difficult times. Blame Peter for whatever bad situation is current, and fire Peter publicly, followed by differentiating between the loser you just fired and his team, who have done great work, but now will have to dig deeper to get out from under the mess Peter left...

Any leader who can't use an incompetent or 2 isn't a leader, he's a Peter, in place to be used by a leader.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by ThisDinosaur »

Riggerjack wrote:
Tue May 30, 2017 2:25 pm
Maybe I'm not spelling this out clearly enough, or maybe you have a cartoon in your head labeled "riggerjack, libertarian".
Riggerjack wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:35 am
But, this dinosaur seemed to be looking for a chance to demonstrate that "God" is a trigger word for him.
This combination of quotes made me :lol: :roll:

I'm not sure where Riggerjack got the idea that I'm some kind of commie, but nearly every comment about me reads like you are schooling a cartoon of a lib'ral SJW. I'm not offended, its just not accurate and I'm not sure where it comes from. Did you figure out who made that "stick/carrot" comment yet?

Speaking of my trigger word:
https://deusdiapente.wordpress.com/2012 ... nevitable/
Belief in an active High God was significantly greater in societies that were larger, more stratified (i.e. less equality) and societies engaged in intensive agriculture. Now, all of these things go together – you need intensive agriculture to support a large society, and large agricultural societies have the surpluses and politics that facilitate stratification.

All of this fits nicely with the hypothesis that moralising gods are an invention of large, structured societies.
A small community can probably get along with a complicated myth set, or intricate argument about what community members owe each other and why. A large, complicated society is going to have many more conflicting opinions. As a result, stability depends on a simplified mythology that we can all agree on. A vague set of inalienable rights is a much simpler story than explaining social contracts in terms of game theory.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by ThisDinosaur »

Riggerjack wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:35 am
And campitor is talking about rights, morality, and equality. And very few others had much to say at all.

I thought I was keeping this thread on topic, but I'm starting to think I've been thread jacking. I'll try to stop that.
The people who study this IRL seem to think rights, morality, and equality are intertwined.
http://www.moralfoundations.org/
Fairness/cheating: This foundation is related to the evolutionary process of reciprocal altruism. It generates ideas of justice, rights, and autonomy. [Note: In our original conception, Fairness included concerns about equality, which are more strongly endorsed by political liberals. However, as we reformulated the theory in 2011 based on new data, we emphasize proportionality, which is endorsed by everyone, but is more strongly endorsed by conservatives]
I'm not sure if this is where campitor got his ideas about rights, but Jonathan Haidt 's team of experts seem to agree with him. Morality and rights have their origin in the social nature of the human brain. We evaluate if a situation is fair or unfair with our gut, then rationalize a set of rights or moral laws to explain that judgement as consistent with our instinct.

Since evolutionary biology is the hammer with which I hit every nail, I like this explanation.

bryan
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by bryan »

This and the "The opposite of poverty is justice" thread have had some good nuggets and reminders (e.g. "empowerment").

My own take is of course that "rights" is a construct _extremely_ similar to "value."

Riggerjack
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Riggerjack »

This combination of quotes made me :lol: :roll:
Then I got it just about right. It makes me a bit sad when I write something, chuckle, post, and come back to find that I have offended someone. Not sad enough to show restraint, obviously. :D

Riggerjack
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Riggerjack »

I'm not sure where Riggerjack got the idea that I'm some kind of commie, but nearly every comment about me reads like you are schooling a cartoon of a lib'ral SJW. I'm not offended, its just not accurate and I'm not sure where it comes from. Did you figure out who made that "stick/carrot" comment yet?
Commie/SJW? No. I think you are young. I'm guessing mid to late 20's. I haven't had a chance to find that bit of overreacting on my part, or maybe I'm not enthusiastic to go find it...

My "voice" sounds like I'm lecturing, but that isn't my intent. I am just so slow at typing with one finger on my phone, that I sum up a paragraph's of information in a sentence or two. It makes for an awkward read, but it's all I have the time/patience for.

I'm slow to respond lately, because I am currently working 6-7 days a week. I'll be more timely when I have more time.

enigmaT120
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by enigmaT120 »

Riggerjack your posts are amazing, especially if done on a phone.

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