Where do "Rights" come from?

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Dragline
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Dragline »

"Rights" as myth or narrative was one of Harari's points or themes in "Sapiens." Which led him to his "three forms of humanism", only one of which -- liberal humanism -- includes a focus or preference on individual rights. The others, "social humanism" and "evolutionary humanism" are concerned with perfecting societies and the human race at the expense of individualism. (I gotch yer commies and eugenecist nazis rightch 'ere.)

What Harari missed is what Nietszche picked up upon about Western society's obsession with victimhood and restoring/creating individual "equalness", which N correctly attributed to the influence of Christianity. Many others picked up that line of thought.

I agree that rights are more a product of belief than anything else. (Count me one of those liberal Christians.) But like money, such beliefs have proven to be quite useful in structuring a society that most modern people would prefer to live in over the two other options that Harari identified.

It's like that quote from Churchill that representative democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

IlliniDave
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by IlliniDave »

BRUTE wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 3:37 pm
are any humans here actually arguing for the inherent/self-evident/<god|natural>-given nature of rights? doesn't seem that way to brute, most seem to believe in some variation of why they're practical.
I think they are essentially natural--like I said above, they are just freedoms that we aren't asked to surrender to be part of a society. Without the society/it's government, we would have even more freedoms and hence more "rights". That society/government do not take away a freedom, does not mean they created it. Now, is there a list of freedoms that some higher power (supernatural, intellectual, whatever) has deemed that a society/government should not suppress? Different cultures seem to come up with their own customs on that front, as clearly not all freedoms are inherently good, and others are inconvenient for those trying to herd the cats.

BRUTE
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by BRUTE »

natural in the sense that a human alone on an island can shoot a gun in any direction without causing any other humans trouble? brute could go along with that. rights/freedoms in a literal meaning, degrees of freedom to act.

IlliniDave
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by IlliniDave »

Yeah, more or less. He can say what he wants, believe what he wants, relieve himself where he wants, sleep where he wants, take what he wants, arm himself any way he wants, kill/eat whatever he wants, all that. Living in a social setting with rules and enforcement (unless he is a supreme ruler of some sort) those activities begin to be restricted.

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GandK
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by GandK »

I agree that rights are a moral construct, and further posit that "rights" (receiving from individuals/society) is only half of the real discussion in these two threads... "responsibilities" (giving to individuals/society) is the other half. And there are some incredible machinations going on to avoid all reference to the latter construct. The majority of each side in American society is reluctant to acknowledge that either individuals (Left) or groups (Right) even have responsibilities, because as soon as you do that, you find yourself admitting that YOU (either individually or collectively) ought to be doing something different in light of injustice. Probably something uncomfortable, too. And who the hell wants to do that? So we stay in the "rights" discussion lane, and the whole thing can remain theoretical.

Campitor
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Campitor »

GandK wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 10:21 pm
I agree that rights are a moral construct, and further posit that "rights" (receiving from individuals/society) is only half of the real discussion in these two threads... "responsibilities" (giving to individuals/society) is the other half. And there are some incredible machinations going on to avoid all reference to the latter construct. The majority of each side in American society is reluctant to acknowledge that either individuals (Left) or groups (Right) even have responsibilities, because as soon as you do that, you find yourself admitting that YOU (either individually or collectively) ought to be doing something different in light of injustice. Probably something uncomfortable, too. And who the hell wants to do that? So we stay in the "rights" discussion lane, and the whole thing can remain theoretical.
1) Responsibility and what it means is subjective.

2) I dispute your assertion that there are incredible machinations to avoid responsibility by American Society regardless of "Left" or "Right" affiliation. The left is constantly harping about responsibilities and how it's best served by equal outcomes via forced redistribution of capital. And the Right is constantly harping about responsibility and how its best achieved by equal access to opportunity via free market systems. I believe there has to be a common sense compromise between both systems which MUST include personal accountability by the recipients of the solution as well as concrete objectives in order to measure progress so unsuccessful programs can be eliminated instead of being open ended programs that waste tax payer money.

3) You should probably start a "Responsibility" thread.

Riggerjack
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Riggerjack »

The majority of each side in American society is reluctant to acknowledge that either individuals (Left) or groups (Right) even have responsibilities, because as soon as you do that, you find yourself admitting that YOU (either individually or collectively) ought to be doing something different in light of injustice. Probably something uncomfortable, too. And who the hell wants to do that? So we stay in the "rights" discussion lane, and the whole thing can remain theoretical.
3) You should probably start a "Responsibility" thread.
Maybe it is just me, but I don't see the difference between rights and responsibilities. How can I be free to make a mess, and you be responsible to clean it up? In that situation, either I am not free, or you are not responsible.

Maybe this is where I differ from the strawman libertarian so many choose to argue with when I speak. I believe freedom is responsibility. The sharply divided lines of a simple libertarian model frees me BECAUSE of all the parts of life I am not responsible for, but also in that my responsibilities are not shared.

If I choose not to dig a well, but setup a water catchment system, that is all on me. I am responsible for my water quality and quantity, thus free to choose my best solution. If I am free to choose my best option, but the community is on the hook for making up my shortages, I am beholden to the community (not free) and eventually the community will decide to restrict water options (not free) or the community will decide to stop backingme up (not responsible).

How would a world where freedom not be connected to responsibility even work? I suspect this only exists in the rhetoric of political speeches.

Dragline
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Dragline »

Riggerjack wrote:
Tue May 30, 2017 12:05 pm

How would a world where freedom not be connected to responsibility even work? I suspect this only exists in the rhetoric of political speeches.
Well, yes, these "lone human" or desert island scenarios are largely just theoretical constructs that never existed except as exceptions to the rule, lone wolf/survivor Hollywood movies notwithstanding. Human beings have always existed in communities as long as there have been humans. Lone humans did not have a very good survival rate, and getting banished from the group was often effectively a death sentence.

Thus, the "group model" should be assumed to be the more factually accurate starting point for this analysis. In such a model, responsibilities to the group (to avoid getting banished or beaten) and "role-based rights" would be the base of understanding, not any presumed individual rights in a vacuum.

A good place to start is actually "Chimpanzee Politics" (de Waal), which probably more accurately reflects the human starting point than any lone actor scenario (and Newt Gingrich had people read to understand the US Congress). Essentially, the actors carve out roles for themselves and their allies that carry certain responsibilities and "rights" within the group. And such things change as alliances change. Not a very scalable model on its own, which most likely is what led to all sorts of rules/responsibilities and options (rights) about who should or be allowed to do what and when. After a mimetic rivalry and a founding murder or two to get the ordered society on firmer footing (Cain and Abel, Romulus and Remus, Zeus and Cronos . . .)

In the rights-built-on-lone wolf scenarios, the rights are invariably deemed bestowed on individuals by God or Nature. See F. Bastiat, "The Law" for the typical formulation: "What, then, is law? It is the collective organization of the individual right to lawful defense. Each of us has a natural right — from God — to defend his person, his liberty, and his property." This does not account for how societies actually evolved.

IlliniDave
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by IlliniDave »

The purpose of protecting freedom is to allow a person every opportunity to fulfill responsibility. One of the difficulties we have is the government taking over more-and-more responsibility for what individuals were once responsible for. So we have a population of people with a lot of freedom and disproportionately little responsibility--much like the life many know as teenagers. In the long run that gradually erodes freedom by taking away the "need" for it, i.e., the need for the gov't to tolerate it.

Riggerjack
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Riggerjack »

Well, yes, these "lone human" or desert island scenarios are largely just theoretical constructs that never existed except as exceptions to the rule, lone wolf/survivor Hollywood movies notwithstanding.
Is what I meant by
Maybe this is where I differ from the strawman libertarian so many choose to argue with when I speak.
Maybe I'm not spelling this out clearly enough, or maybe you have a cartoon in your head labeled "riggerjack, libertarian". Maybe both.

I used actor/act, individual/community in my post, but honestly, this applies equally in community/community, or individual/individual interactions.

There is no freedom without responsibility. Anyone who says there is, is selling you something.

Campitor
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Campitor »

I agree that rights come with responsibility even in the lone wolf scenario - no one is going to preserve life, liberty, and property for you which means you have to preserve it via solo efforts - failing that responsibility means death which effectively terminates any rights you may have had anyways.

But how does this square with the scenario where might makes right? There is a disproportionate enjoyment of rights and responsibilities. The Alphas have more rights and less responsibilities while the Betas have more responsibilities and less rights. Responsibilities come from the threat of violence via the state or the individual. Powerful groups often impose their rights on weaker groups while exempting themselves of any responsibility to those groups. Access to rights and the obligation of responsibility is always asymmetric.

Riggerjack
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Riggerjack »

But how does this square with the scenario where might makes right? There is a disproportionate enjoyment of rights and responsibilities. The Alphas have more rights and less responsibilities while the Betas have more responsibilities and less rights. Responsibilities come from the threat of violence via the state or the individual. Powerful groups often impose their rights on weaker groups while exempting themselves of any responsibility to those groups. Access to rights and the obligation of responsibility is always asymmetric.
I hear what you are saying, but could you be specific, give us an example?

classical_Liberal
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by classical_Liberal »

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Last edited by classical_Liberal on Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Riggerjack
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Riggerjack »

I chose the playground metaphor because it shows negotiation without rules. I was trying to show that this negotiation is a societal building block.

Then I tried to show how violence undermines stability, and stability is necessary for more leverage. That stable, modern hierarchies are that way because they allow further leverage, more levels of leadership, and that this is exponential.

We all in modern society start out in minor roles at the bottom of whatever hierarchy we join. At the bottom, there is very little or no negotiation. As you gain/demonstrate skills and talents, you start to move up the ladder. How you move and where, are parts of your negotiation. It doesn't matter what the rules are, or how complex the society us, there will always be this negotiation, and it will be between you and your superiors, then you and your peers, and finally between you and your subordinates. The spread between your rewards from above, minus the coats of your rewards to your team, and any reserve to resolve issues with peers is your cut. That is your rights/responsibilities/compensation.

In well established, traditional hierarchies, the spread is tighter, and movement/promotion more scheduled/automatic. In less established hierarchies, there are wider spreads, and movement/promotion is negotiated as well.
Well, yes, these "lone human" or desert island scenarios are largely just theoretical constructs that never existed except as exceptions to the rule, lone wolf/survivor Hollywood movies notwithstanding. Human beings have always existed in communities as long as there have been humans.
I wasn't speaking of "lone human desert island scenarios". Lone humans engaged in negotiations, have probably been alone too long...

However, the vast majority of humans and human history was ALL about these negotiations. Most of the time it was a leader, and his family running their little fiefdom as they saw fit, and kicking taxes up the ladder. Your choices were to fit where they wanted you to, maybe fit where you wanted to, or failing that, flee or stage a coup, entering into negotiations with your lord's master and his household and subjects.

Modern society has enabled more extensive hierarchies by having streamlined negotiated positions. So much so that often, people will move thru multiple positions without negotiations worthy of the word, but packaging a deal doesn't change the fact that it is a deal.

As a good friend put it, "Everyone makes their own deal, even if it is accepting a prewritten contract, you chose it." He was talking about the different ways guys were treated at work in a union job, where we were all theoretically equals, but as with all equality, some were more equal.

Campitor
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Campitor »

Riggerjack wrote:
Tue May 30, 2017 5:56 pm
I hear what you are saying, but could you be specific, give us an example?
Crony capitalism - those with money/power can exercise greater privilege over property rights. Google eminent domain abuse. Here's a starter link: Eminent disaster
Maybe I shouldn't join such a heady discussion, but I think this particular statement is wholly untrue. Very few have experienced the true alpha role in society. Very few are born as a Kennedy, or personally achieve any level of great prosperity and influence.
In 2016 there were 540 billionaires in the USA (Forbes). In 2016, there were 9.4 million individuals with net worth between $1 million and $5 million, 1.3 million individuals with net worth between $5 million and $25 million, and 156,000 households with more than $25 million in net worth (CNBC).

Seems like being affluent isn't that hard. Those numbers are not insignificant and the wealth (ERE -cough- ERE) allows you more autonomy (freedom) than is enjoyed by most who haven't figured out how to maximize their rights ala Jacob. Please note that I'm not saying that wealth is unfair but rather it will let you enjoy certain rights to a greater extent like property, trade, and freedom - an asymmetric enjoyment of rights.

And Alpha states are temporary and contextual - one person's Beta is someone else's Alpha. Example - the boss who reams out his/her minimum wage workers for no apparent reason but is completely subservient to his/her spouse or domineering boss. And Alpha status (I use the term loosely) isn't only based on strength or wealth - Charlatans/sociopaths use their intelligence to cheat people all the time - they abuse other's property rights (money,time,resources) for personal gain. Intellectual Capital can create imbalances of rights/freedoms.

Riggerjack
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Riggerjack »

I read your kelo v article. I didn't see anyone enjoying extra rights.

I did see a minor abuse of city power, but nothing out of the ordinary. At least they were compensated for their houses. The usual practice is to steal land as part of a permit shakedown.
Oh, you want a garage? You need a permit.

Oh, you want a permit? We'll just need you to give us the front 15 feet of your yard. Oh, and a check for the permit, of course.

This shakedown happens day in and day out.

But back to your original premise that rich folks have more rights and less responsibilities. I still haven't seen an example. I think taking greater freedoms requires taking more responsibilities.

For instance, if I hire a carpenter, full time, he will get a regular paycheck, and I will sell his work for a significant markup. I have the right to tell him where to go and what to do while he is working for me, and to make money off of his work. I have that right, because I took on the responsibility to line up the work and materials. If this were a 3 man shop, there was probably a real negotiation to hire him. If this was a 250 man shop, there was probably a standard package offered and accepted.

Campitor
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Campitor »

@ Riggerjack

Did you drill into any of the sublinks in the main article? I've pasted below some snippets.

I REACHED Mike Cristofaro on Thursday afternoon, a few hours after the Supreme Court ruled that local governments can seize people's property by eminent domain and turn it over to private developers. The court's 5-4 decision was a defeat for seven New London, Conn., property owners, who have resisted the city's plan to demolish their homes to make way for offices, upscale condos, and a waterfront hotel. Mike's 79-year-old father, Pasquale Cristofaro, is one of those homeowners, and I wondered how he had taken the news.

In truth, though, it isn't all property that is at risk. If ''public use" now means the government can evict a property owner so that a new owner can use the land to make more money, it is clear who will suffer most. ''The fallout from this decision will not be random," O'Connor wrote sadly. ''The beneficiaries are likely to be those citizens with disproportionate influence and power in the political process, including large corporations and development firms. . . . The government now has license to transfer property from those with fewer resources to those with more."

In a separate dissent, Thomas made the same point: ''These losses will fall disproportionately on poor communities . . . the least politically powerful." Fifty years of eminent domain statistics drive home the fact that families uprooted by eminent domain tend to be nonwhite and/or nonwealthy. No wonder urban renewal came to be known bitterly as ''Negro removal."


Isn't this an example of asymmetric right when the courts can force the transfer of private property to another private entity because of the size of their bank account/resources? Isn't this the very essence of lopsided rights?

Riggerjack
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Riggerjack »

No. This is courts acting on their responsibilities. The responsibility they claimed from citizens. We as Americans are born into a citizen package of rights and responsibilities that was originally packaged as a better deal than King George was offering, then modified over the years (the biggest changes were under Lincoln). All along, part of that package was to be subject to the will of our government, courts included. Obviously, the Constitution and amendments put limits on governmental will, but it is our responsibility to uphold them. If we fail, they will follow the 10th amendment into unenforceable obscurity.

I'm familiar with the Kelo decision. It fell as predicted, progressive justices supporting the government power, conservative justices pointing out the amazing abuse that WILL result.

No state supreme court has taken it as a guiding policy, and many states immediately passed laws prohibiting it. Unpopular, closely split decisions are often overturned, I expect this will be as well. Scalia compared it to dredd scott. I didn't often agree with Scalia, but I do miss his writing...

Riggerjack
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Riggerjack »

I'm not in any way defending eminent domain seizure as morally right, just that it is part of the package. That nobody exercised some mysterious special alpha powers, this was merely business as usual.

Campitor
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Re: Where do "Rights" come from?

Post by Campitor »

Riggerjack wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 8:02 pm
That nobody exercised some mysterious special alpha powers, this was merely business as usual.
Mysterious alpha powers - don't know why but that comment made me laugh. Anyways - it wasn't business as usual or the states wouldn't have amended their laws to stop it from happening. Despite the temporary nature of the imbalance, taking property from the less affluent and giving it to the more affluent, it still led to the forced relinquishing of land from owners that didn't want to sell but took $$ to avoid getting $0.

Just because a land grab was state sanctioned doesn't invalidate that someone's rights (the holder of greater capital) were enriched at the expense of the relatively less powerful. I'm also not arguing for or against the morality of the decision but just pointing out that in these circumstances there is an unequal enjoyment of rights. Someone's right to property was forcefully terminated with the explicit intent to hand it to someone else who the state assigned greater value.

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