"The opposite of poverty is justice"

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ThisDinosaur
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by ThisDinosaur »

@scriptbunny
I used to be one of those people who thought we were approaching an inevitable post racism society. I was oblivious. Makes me wonder what ideas I have now that I'll totally change my mind about.

And for-profit prisons are an excellent example of why free market solutions are sometimes a terrible idea.

Reparations, though, are a sure way to perpetuate interracial tensions for at least another generation. If we are for equality, we should ensure equality of opportunity. We shouldn't try to Harrison Bergeron ourselves into "fairness."

ThisDinosaur
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by ThisDinosaur »

Agree with everything brute said after that first paragraph. The state executing citizens is a problem worth adressing. I havent made a list, but that might be on it if i did.

BRUTE
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by BRUTE »

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 10:39 pm
Agree with everything brute said after that first paragraph. The state executing citizens is a problem worth adressing. I havent made a list, but that might be on it if i did.
the state executing citizens is a problem worth addressing in a vacuum. according to Wikipedia, the US has in its history never executed more than 200 humans per year since 1600, and never more than 100 per year since the 1960s. recently, it's been in the 40-50 humans per year range. if 100% of those are presumed innocence, this still pales in comparison to many other issues brute has with the government. 50 human deaths is not even a Friday night in Chicago. how many humans die because of lack of medical care in prison? how many humans are shot every year by the police? how many humans die because their marginal tax rate prevented them from attaining life-saving medical care? how many humans die every year because the FDA would not allow them to seek "experimental" or "dangerous" treatment? how many humans get killed each year as collateral damage in military operations?

while it sounds super reasonable and bipartisan to state things like "libertarianism doesn't have all the solutions" and "toolbox bla bla bla", the fact is, in most of these "race related" issues, libertarianism DOES HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS. the drug war CLEARLY is racist and has caused blacks to suffer as a class.

leading up to 2008, brute really was HOPEful that finally, there was a liberal politician willing to use liberty for good. but even though this politician apparently smoked dope like nobody's business in college himself, he never took any action to solve the biggest issue regarding the systemic discrimination of black humans in this country. in 8 years, he did fucking nothing about the #1 issue. instead, he focused on BS issues like ACA, .. and, what else again?

thus, brute has completely run out of patience for liberals. libertarianism has the #1 answer to systemic racism. liberals can wake brute up when they're ready to legalize all drugs. until then, brute is going to jerk off and play video games, because at least then he's got something to show for his efforts.

BRUTE
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by BRUTE »

brute's list:
1.end war on drugs
2.un-fuck or completely stop all foreign military engagements
3.decriminalization of all victimless crimes (see also: prostitution)
4.dissolve public school system: it had its chance, it failed. at this point, it's just Stockholm syndrome.
5."proof of benefit or sunset" regulation: all federal or state programs have to prove their worth annually or be shut down. not worth compared to nothing, but compared to market solutions. yes, the proof is on the government solution - if the threat of the government is involved, there better be a really good reason to prevent humans from exercising their free choice.
6.aggressively reduce prison population. humans should only be imprisoned if it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that this is the best way for society to handle their individual case, i.e. if they are about to commit violent crimes any second. all other humans can work off their debt or be placed under house arrest or whatever. actually strike #6, this is #3 or 4. also, clemency for all humans currently imprisoned for victimless crimes, and monitored release of all humans who do not currently pose a violent threat.
7.dissolve borders, all humans who are determined to make it in, make it in anyways. cost outweighs benefits by far.
8.maybe death penalty

oh there, it made it. brute is a bleeding heart libertarian after all.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by ThisDinosaur »

I dont think i know any liberals who are against decriminalization of drugs. I cant think of any conservatives i know who are against it at this point either. This is strictly a problem with the politicians, not their constituents. The politicians represent the people who fund their campaigns. This was Bernie's main issue at the start of his presidential run. Meanwhile, Republicans support Citizens United. Plus, they have Jeff Sessions.

And brute's #6 sounds pretty far left to me.

James_0011
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by James_0011 »

@ThisDinosaur sounds like you don't know any real conservatives. There are plenty of people against ending the drug war, I really don't think it's just an issue with politicians.

IlliniDave
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by IlliniDave »

James_0011 wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 5:49 am
@ThisDinosaur sounds like you don't know any real conservatives. There are plenty of people against ending the drug war, I really don't think it's just an issue with politicians.
Yeah, there are a lot of people who are all for personal freedom, except when it comes to other people doing things they don't want other people to do. People who think the FDA and ATF are catastrophic federal overreach but at the same time love the DEA.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by ThisDinosaur »

@James
I'm sure there are real people with that opinion. I just think its more common among politicians than the voters. I base this only on the people that I know. My coworkers are mostly republicans; a number of vocal trump supporters as well as some evangelicals and small-government types who tolerate him. Even the ones who think drugs are immoral don't seem to think they should be illegal. My dad is a media stereotype of a Trump voter (blue collar Midwesterner distrustful of minorities, esp. immigrants) and he wants legal medicinal pot for his knee pain. I know some people who work for the democratic party (as in, they are the people who help decide who the party endorses in local races) and they are for decriminalization as well.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by ThisDinosaur »

brute makes a good point that some problems are more important based on the degree and number of people affected. Going back to scriptbunny's OP, I would say most of the items on that list should be pretty low in priority with the exception of these:

- Punitive justice versus rehabilitative justice
- The effect of intergenerational trauma, unresolved, in black communities

A justice system that rehabs violent offenders (assuming possible) and releases them to be productive members of society, is better than the alternatives for all involved (except the victims and families who want revenge.)

There is no question that history has an impact on where everyone starts out in life. I submit there is no way to fix that without making things worse. However, it is conceivable that you can level the playing field by, as much as possible, building a meritocracy into the existing system. This may require standardizing schools, so that rich and poor kids get identical quality educations. (In finland, its illegal to open a school and charge tuition. Result: rich parents are incentivized to make sure public schools are of high quality.)

IlliniDave
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by IlliniDave »

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 7:48 am

A justice system that rehabs violent offenders (assuming possible) and releases them to be productive members of society, is better than the alternatives for all involved (except the victims and families who want revenge.)
It's more than just the justice system. Once a record exists, even for nonviolent offenders, it is permanent (even if expunged, it will still be in the data system of all the background check providers out there). Such a record closes so many doors that at best a person could achieve only marginal reintegration.

Riggerjack
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by Riggerjack »

I know some people who work for the democratic party (as in, they are the people who help decide who the party endorses in local races) and they are for decriminalization as well.
Then you are wasting your time here. There is only one issue liberals should have on their minds. Removing the top third of the DNC. I haven't heard about a purge, so I assume they will be as ineffective at running their party as they are at the rest. If you can't fix your party, why would anyone trust you to fix anything else?

Riggerjack
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by Riggerjack »

I too was disappointed, in that what he said was not what he did, or had done.

But... Sometimes he who governs least...

Obama was CIC when States started legalizing marijuana. Keeping Federal forces out of that helped.

While giving a nice speech about changes he would force the BATFE to make in background checks, the BATFE changed long standing policies restricting silencers, making them easier to get for law abiding citizens, and bringing poliicy closer to Constitutional compliance.

Give credit where it's due. If you thought he would do as he said, or if you just listened to the speaches, I could see being disappointed. But when you look at what actually happened in his term, I think he was the best since Reagan. And even Reagan the President wasn't Reagan, as we remember him...

Riggerjack
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by Riggerjack »

Ta-Nehisi Coates of The Atlantic made the case for reparations. Can we track down the black vets, those of WW2, the Korean War, of Vietnam that were unable to use their GI benefits for college and housing due to segregation and redlining and give them and their descendants that free tuition, that heavily subsidized first home? Can we actually attempt creating school busing and desegregation programs that work across entire metro regions and include the wealthy white suburbs? I don't think our society has the stomach for these things, but it's the scale we should consider if ever we do.
I have a lot to say about this, but I'm not done reading your links. I will be back after.

But, scriptbunny, I'm going to ask a few questions, don't answer if you aren't comfortable.

I think you are young, black, female, and in Boston. Did you grow up there? Do you vote? Which party, and why?

When you speak of reparations, who do you think should pay them, and how? Specifically, who would get them, and how would you divide those who get reparations, and who wouldn't? Do you believe your government is capable of righting this, or will this be just another grievance in 15-20 years?

I'll check back, looking for your reply.

James_0011
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by James_0011 »

@ffj

How do marriage and children solve any problems?

Also, yes what you're saying is overly simplified, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenerational_trauma
Last edited by James_0011 on Tue May 23, 2017 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Riggerjack
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by Riggerjack »

Secondly we need to stop the condescension and treat the afflicted as adults that are capable of making adult decisions. Why is the drug policy racist? It's implied that blacks are incapable of not doing drugs, so we have to protect them.
Uh, no. Drug policy is racist because the vast majority of prosecutions are black. White kids buy drugs, get caught, do community service. Black kids sell drugs, without licenses, and then go to jail.

I'm not sure I buy that, but that is the racial argument. If you want to argue against it, I'm good with that.

Also, you grew up in rural Kentucky, got a good paying job working with the fire department. Then retired early. Recently, I have come to hate the word " privilege", but that is a world away from the community scriptbunny is talking about.
First of all, if anybody wants to fix any particular groups problems, that solution needs to come from within the affected group. Others can make it easier , just like this site, to provide information and resources, but ultimately it is the responsibility of the affected person to bring about change. And we need to understand that a lot of people are comfortable in their station in life, even though it would not be palatable to us.
Yup.

Riggerjack
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by Riggerjack »

@ffj

How do marriage and children solve any problems?
My position on kids is clear, no need to repeat here.

But marriage and homeownership are 2 primary drivers of stable middle class communities. If your goal is to achieve the benefits of stable, middle class communities, following the recipe is probably the easiest way to do this.

Looking at black families will reinforce this. I'm not comfortable with that, but my comfort isn't the issue here.

Riggerjack
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by Riggerjack »

ThisDinosaur wrote: ↑

A justice system that rehabs violent offenders (assuming possible) and releases them to be productive members of society, is better than the alternatives for all involved (except the victims and families who want revenge.)

It's more than just the justice system. Once a record exists, even for nonviolent offenders, it is permanent (even if expunged, it will still be in the data system of all the background check providers out there). Such a record closes so many doors that at best a person could achieve only marginal reintegration.
And worse still, the society inside is so removed and distant from middle class norms, that learning to live inside is learning to be excluded outside. Etiquette forms walls, all the more impenetrable because they are not perceived.

James_0011
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by James_0011 »

@Riggerjack

Clearly correlation isn't causation. Just because stable middle class people tend to be married doesn't mean that it causes stability.

As someone who is pretty far left, my alarm bells start to go off whenever I hear anyone saying that everyone needs to have a kid/get married/go to church/insert religious right cliche here.

Riggerjack
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by Riggerjack »

Ffj is speaking of community dynamics. By any measure, the relative number of married couples in a community, has strong positive correlation to stability and prosperity. This isn't my opinion, these is basic demographics. Read Thomas sowell or Walter Williams for all the details you want.

Does this mean you will become prosperous and stable by marrying? Of course not. Does this mean you can't be prosperous or stable with your girlfriend? Again, of course not.

But the relative number of married couples in your community will have a influence in how your community reacts and acts. This will have influence on you.

You make your choices, and live with the consequences.

I grew up in the worst parts of Tacoma, and dying logging towns. Wherever rent was cheapest. There is no part of dysfunctional family and community I'm not familiar with. I am not a big proponent of marriage, despite how well it worked for me.

But, when speaking of communities, you have to speak to the aggregate, not the individual.

BRUTE
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Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by BRUTE »

ffj wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 10:03 am
Secondly we need to stop the condescension and treat the afflicted as adults that are capable of making adult decisions. Why is the drug policy racist? It's implied that blacks are incapable of not doing drugs, so we have to protect them.
bullshit. drug policy is racist because it was explicitly started to damage the Mexican and black communities (marijuana) back in the day. has ffj ever wondered why this plant is referred to by its Spanish name? politically unwelcome black community leaders were locked up for their drug habits back then. for that, drugs had to be made illegal.

and starting in the 80s, sentencing for crack was set much higher than the equivalent dose of cocaine - even though it's the exact same drug. the difference? black humans took crack, white humans took cocaine.

Locked