"The opposite of poverty is justice"

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
Locked
IlliniDave
Posts: 3837
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by IlliniDave »

Well, the good news is Florida just took down the last of its confederate monuments, maybe more of the states will follow in the fullness of time.

BRUTE
Posts: 3797
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by BRUTE »

unfortunately, that kind of feel-good BS doesn't actually help any humans. things that would help: decriminalization of victimless crimes like prostitution, drug possession, etc.

the problem, in brute's eyes, is the criminalization of morals. moral humans think not only should everybody behave like them, all humans who act differently should probably be in jail.

thus, brute dislikes morals.

RealPerson
Posts: 875
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:33 pm

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by RealPerson »

BRUTE wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 3:38 pm
decriminalization of victimless crimes like prostitution
Prostitution is not about morals. It is about women or children forced into prostitution. These are violent crimes against victims, whether women or children. I have no problem with the sexual morals involved. I do mind the enslavement or abuse of people, both of which are rampant in prostitution. This is not a victimless crime.

IlliniDave
Posts: 3837
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by IlliniDave »

RealPerson wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 3:54 pm
BRUTE wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 3:38 pm
decriminalization of victimless crimes like prostitution
Prostitution is not about morals. It is about women or children forced into prostitution. These are violent crimes against victims, whether women or children. I have no problem with the sexual morals involved. I do mind the enslavement or abuse of people, both of which are rampant in prostitution. This is not a victimless crime.
Maybe it would be different if taken out of the underworld. I don't hear a lot about sex trafficking and slavery and other abuses being rampant and widespread in Nevada.

ThisDinosaur
Posts: 997
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:31 am

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by ThisDinosaur »

There's also a public health argument against prostitution. The government has an interest in reducing communicable diseases.

Also, a rehabilitation focused criminal justice system is more logical than a punishment focused one.

RealPerson
Posts: 875
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:33 pm

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by RealPerson »

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 6:07 pm
There's also a public health argument against prostitution. The government has an interest in reducing communicable diseases.
Yes, but it is my understanding that prostitutes are generally far better at implementing proper protection as compared to the many one night stands, sex under the influence of alcohol, sex in college with God knows how many partners, etc. The prostitutes are pros after all.

User avatar
fiby41
Posts: 1610
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:09 am
Location: India
Contact:

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by fiby41 »

One more reason for criminalising prostitution not mentioned above is it undermines the institution of marriage. Especially places where pre-maririal sex is not widespread, marriage is the only way.

BRUTE
Posts: 3797
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by BRUTE »

if the only thing keeping the institution of marriage alive is criminalizing the alternatives, maybe it's not supposed to be.

James_0011
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:00 am

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by James_0011 »

BRUTE wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 12:35 am
if the only thing keeping the institution of marriage alive is criminalizing the alternatives, maybe it's not supposed to be.
+1, also why does everyone assume that making prostitution illegal reduces its prevalence. If anything, it just creates a black market and makes everything less safe for the prostitutes.

James_0011
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:00 am

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by James_0011 »

@scriptbunny

I think the problem people (or at least I) have with social justice warriors is that they want to censor people that don't agree with them. For the SJWs free speech doesn't apply to people like trump supporters.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9344
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

As we learned from the history of money thread, payment of bride-price is one of the core functions of a monetary system. Since human beings are out-breeders, they must either engage in trade or conquest with "others" in order to successfully reproduce over the medium run (inbreeding quickly weakens stock, and is generally deemed repugnant.)

A bride-of-the-right-hand was a female to whom sexual access was gained through conquest. A bride-of-the-left-hand was a female to whom sexual access was gained through legal/social contract/trade. Due to the 1.6 average ratio of disparate muscular strength/size between the human genders, in order for a female to have equal status as an independent citizen, she must rely on the technology/law/3rd-protection available in an advanced economy (for example, will not happen in warrior culture.) Therefore, since females have only had the equal rights to own any sort of property for less than 100 years, the issues surrounding free ownership and trade in sexuality are still in turmoil.

One phrase that used to be applied to a female in non-marriage contract with a man was to say that she was "under his protection." I asked my friend who was a girlfriend-experience-escort how she protected herself, and she said she relied on the security staff of the very expensive hotels she included in the cost of her services. She acquired clients off of the internet, using a service much like EBay (clients and providers both rated by prior users) and her clientele was quite varied. Older married men whose wives were either no longer interested or interesting (odd dysfunction of the male brain is that they often can't tell the difference), single men who were too physically unattractive to attract females on the open market, attractive workaholics who were too busy to date, and straight-forward variety seekers, etc. etc. She actually had more annoyance-level problems dealing with men trying to "rescue" her than men trying to seriously physically harm her. Since she worked out of both Detroit and Washington D.C., many of her clients were directly involved in making/upholding the law of the land, so pretty much impossible to imagine a realm in which hypocrisy is less rampant.

Anyways, it is my take that always and everywhere, viewing another human as a victim is inherently disrespectful, so apply with caution.

ThisDinosaur
Posts: 997
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:31 am

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by ThisDinosaur »

@brute,7W5
The fact that marriage is defined by the state reflects that religeon predates the state as a bedrock of civilization. That's probably why most people think the role of the criminal justice system is to punish sinners, rather than to protect the law-abiding tax-payers from thieves and muderers, etc.

@james
SJW is a dirty word for liberals and conservatives for the same reason. Its a label for those who kill free speech in order to "protect" people from the "trauma" of hearing dissenting opinions.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9344
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@ThisDinosaur: Right, and since, IMO, religions are mostly based on archaic sanitation rules, making prostitution illegal for reason of communicable disease prevention would be in proper alignment with mainstream religious practice.

My sister's BF is an expert of the epidemiology of AIDS, which is actually not unrelated to another modern sanitation/morality issue which is the ingestion of sugar. Prostitution in sugar cane fields, where the majority of workers are young men, is highly contributory. General rule of thumb is that disparity in numbers of females vs. males increases spread of sexually communicable diseases. However, the funny or interesting thing is that if you imagine a model of uniform average higher demand for sexual interaction in males in an isolated community of set population evenly divided by gender, then a female choosing to be a nun is as likely to contribute to the spread of disease as another female choosing to engage in some level of promiscuity, given that supply is free to rise to demand on open market.

I inquired about the risk of my practice of polyamory within the population of affluent 1st world men over the age of 50 (including condom requirement for all but primary partner), and was informed by PhD epidemiologist that my health was at much greater risk during the 20 minute car ride to the yacht club. OTOH, I am sure that I am currently afflicted with pink eye due to activity along the lines of sharing pencil while attempting to explain story problem about "how many apples" with very low income 6 year old. Historically, prostitution has also contributed to the spread of non-sexual diseases due to being an occasion for close interaction between members of lower class who lived in more crowded, unsanitary situations and members of upper class. For instance:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1286984/

One point not often made in the debate around universal health care is that communicable diseases are generally not well-boundaried by iron gates. "Deny the sugar-eating sinner! " care for diabetes if you wish, but then you might have to watch out for whatever was growing on that wet gangrene that the kid who is handing you your latte encountered on the dingy bath towel he shared with his morbidly obese grandfather.

Riggerjack
Posts: 3178
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by Riggerjack »

I especially recommend it to those who are anti-SJW or anti-BLM who want to understand how the other side thinks about these issues.
The joy of SJWs is in no longer hearing them. I doubt anyone is in doubt as to their stances, or opinions. Anti BLM, that's a different story. Bureau of land manament is faulty, with real problems, but rarely mentioned in the same sentence as SJW...

As to the prostitution bit:
Prostitution is not about morals. It is about women or children forced into prostitution. These are violent crimes against victims, whether women or children. I have no problem with the sexual morals involved. I do mind the enslavement or abuse of people, both of which are rampant in prostitution. This is not a victimless crime.
This would be a valid argument, if making it illegal stopped or slowed it down. Hint: it doesn't.

My experience is limited, but less so than others here.

When I was in the service, I went to a Mexican whorehouse with some of my buddies. The lighting was poor, as were the options. I felt I could do better in Mexican bars, and did. But the games inside were interesting. No signs of bruising or abuse, but my inspection was very limited.

My uncle, on my step father's side was a pimp for a while, until the heroine got him. He's a lifer, for other BS. Fortunately, that dramafest went down while I was away in the service.

People here tend to think of their job and bosses in a negative light. Image how you would feel if you worked in a field that didn't enjoy the comfort of law enforcement. That your boss was bigger, meaner, and completely ruthless. That no cop would defend you, and no lawyer would sue. Your choices are to continue, trying to minimize the damage, or escape. And start again, with no resources, no hs diploma, and one skill, that attracts pimps.

Now tell me again about how keeping prostitution illegal is in the hooker's interests.

Black markets are ALWAYS the worst solution.

Riggerjack
Posts: 3178
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by Riggerjack »

Fair enough.

I didn't have time to listen to the video, I was setting pavestones all day. I'll listen at my desk tomorrow, and comment after.

IlliniDave
Posts: 3837
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by IlliniDave »

I wasn't able to listen to the whole thing. I get the whole equating of poverty and injustice line of thought, had that conversation many times. Like many things there's some truth to it, but it's not universal. It gets a bit difficult when there is no definition for justice other than "it's hard", and the end goal is in the subjective emotional realm. I respect the guy's work, I have similar concerns about and objections to the death penalty. There's no disputing that many bad things have happened in this country, and elsewhere on the planet, over the entire course of history.

Riggerjack
Posts: 3178
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by Riggerjack »

Fire alarms being tested at work. Almost as annoying as the bland pap presented in this podcast. I've never heard Ezra Kline before. Odds are against ever hearing him again. I have trimmed commercials out of my life, so the few I hear now are much less tolerable.

As for the guest, I hear where he's coming from. And I can't validate or invalidate his experience. But he seems to still see race, race relations, civil war history, and poverty thru the same lens I used as a teen and young man. I was a liberal, back when progressive was adjective used to describe tax policy.

Looking at life through a progressive lens hightens perception of inequality and injustice. But all lenses cause distortion. The best way I have found to address distortion is to look through a different lens, and compare and contrast. By default, I tend to go to history, as my counterlens to progressive distortion. YMMV.

The guest was long on criticism of our current state of affairs, and very short on anything like a solution. Par for the course. I have no interest or attention to spare for soapbox heroes who have no solutions, simply pointing to a problem and waiting for someone to fix it is the action of a spoiled child. If he had a solution to anything, he kept it well hidden.

Whichbrings me around to SJW and BLM. The bureau of land management will still be here, administering ecological devastation in 50 years. Black lives matter will be forgotten in 10. Not because their cause isn't just, but because their only impact to me (white, male, no real feelings about race) is in Facebook posts on my wife's feed, and publicity stunts like protests at Clinton and Trump rallies. Facebook Activism has no impact and a lifespan of days.

King mattered.he got things done. Malcolm X mattered, he lived his word. Black panthers mattered, they armed themselves, policed themselves, and improved the lot of their communities (I'm a bit split on BPs, their actions improved their communities, and made things better at the bottom, but their results overall were less positive). Maybe black lives matter is about more than publicity stunts, but if that is the case, they aren't communicating it well.
As far as the interview goes, I would suggest folk actually listen to it (in full, the first half is a bit slower) before casting judgment. I think it gives insight into why there's an intra-left debate on why there is a renewed focus on being careful with the language we use in order to reshape counterproductive narratives.

For those that weren't aware (hat tip to @Riggerjack) by BLM I mean Black Lives Matter.

Lastly, I'd like to propose that people try to grapple with the best version of the arguments they disagree with, whether it pertains to this interview or otherwise. It's very easy to dismiss an idea coming from some random, uninformed acquaintance on FB or whatever, particularly if that person is telling you you are wrong or seemingly trying to police your behavior. Bad messengers can make any idea seem poisonous and unworthy of consideration. But at least as an intellectual exercise (and I'd like to think people on this forum are capable of that sort of thing), try to consider what the best form of the other's side argument is and grapple with that.
I would love to do this. I suffered through the whole thing, wanting to give you good counters. But there just wasn't any content. It was just abstract labeling on feelings about labels. I don't do feelings well, and really have no arguments to counter feelings. You feel the way you feel. Good luck with that. Try gaining some perspective to help you wrestle with your feelings. Sorry, that's all I have.

Riggerjack
Posts: 3178
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by Riggerjack »

Btw, if you want to get outraged by racist state Constitutions, Oregon has Alabama beat. Though they did have the decency to revoke it, eventually.

Riggerjack
Posts: 3178
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by Riggerjack »

- Alabama's state constitution still to this day calls for public school racial segregation

This is just democracy in action. It hasn't changed because nobody cares. Not about segregation, but state Constitutions. Once it was overridden at the federal level, fixing the state Constitutions is trivial. Nobody goes through the election process to edit the state Constitutions. No reward means nobody is going to bother with it.

- For every nine people executed in the US, one person on the death penalty has been identified as innocent and exonerated

I disagree entirely. This is just fiction. It doesn't matter who you are, or how much influence you have, our legal system doesn't declare anyone innocent. Many more death penalty cases are overturned, simply because they are more aggressively litigated, with entire organizations dedicated to the defense of death penalty inmates. There is a strong incentive to overturn or err on the side of caution when retrying death penalty cases. If only 1 in 10 is modified, that us a sign that the system is relatively accurate. BTW, I oppose the death penalty on efficiency grounds. I would prefer to live without it.

- In 13 states, there is no minimum age for trying a minor as an adult.
Uh huh. It's like judges are supposed to use... Judgment. In 13 States.

- Punitive justice versus rehabilitative justice
Yeah, again, any suggestions would be welcome. But none in the podcast...


- The US treatment Confederate iconography versus other nations
Yeah. This is what I meant by still using a progressive lens. If you believe that the civil war was about slavery, or the oppression of blacks, or even that the "stars and bars" was the Confederate flag, perhaps some independent study time will help you here. Hint: the civil war was crony capitalism vs everyone else, and the cronies won.

- The effect of intergenerational trauma, unresolved, in black communities

OMG. I just can't put enough eye rolling contempt in words to meet that statement. (Not your fault, this is just my reaction to the same old message, rewritten.) Ignoring the epic scale of historical injustice, that anyone would drag this out is still amazing to me.

I don't mean to diminish the sufferings of blacks present or past. But statements just like this have directly lead to the "fixes" that lead to the current complaints.

I'm a recovered liberal. I WANT equality. I WANT justice. I want blacks to excel, just as I want everyone else to excel. (Statements like this make me think of Lake Wobegon, where all the children are above average... ) But I gave up. Not because the cause lacked justice, but because the cause lacked solutions. Even the proposed solutuobs are more problematic than the status quo. The endless litany of past (and current) injustice, of statistical imbalances, of every slight felt. And no solutions. Even the fixes made things worse.

In my day, the scourge of crack caused liberals to stand up and fight for (FOR!) Mandatory sentencing for crack dealers. For the creation of hate crimes. For low income housing, that broke up families and sentenced poor to unpoliced project housing.

My appetite for poorly thought out, feel good solutions that punish the next generation was satisfied decades ago. If only they stopped when I started paying more attention to long term consequences... The far left burns on the oil of injustice. But I just don't have the emotional endurance to just be angry, without a practical outlet for action. If I can't fix a problem, eventually I will separate myself from it. Which is a dissatisfying fix, but still better than nursing my anger.

Maybe you are smarter than I am. Maybe you can couple your dissatisfaction to working solutions I haven't thought of. If so, I REALLY want to hear about them. But so far your message, and your link, go to nothing but complaints about the status quo, and they sound just like they did back when I made them.

PS, I went from liberal to libertarian. Now I can know the solution, and also never see the harsh results of the test of time. There's a bright side to being a tiny, ineffective political minority...

ThisDinosaur
Posts: 997
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:31 am

Re: "The opposite of poverty is justice"

Post by ThisDinosaur »

Riggerjack wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 3:16 pm
- For every nine people executed in the US, one person on the death penalty has been identified as innocent and exonerated

I disagree entirely. This is just fiction. It doesn't matter who you are, or how much influence you have, our legal system doesn't declare anyone innocent. Many more death penalty cases are overturned, simply because they are more aggressively litigated, with entire organizations dedicated to the defense of death penalty inmates. There is a strong incentive to overturn or err on the side of caution when retrying death penalty cases. If only 1 in 10 is modified, that us a sign that the system is relatively accurate. BTW, I oppose the death penalty on efficiency grounds. I would prefer to live without it.
http://www.newsweek.com/one-25-executed ... ims-248889
The authors believe that 4.1 percent is the lower bound of the wrongful conviction rate for death sentences, because even the special attention given to people on death row will not catch every wrongful conviction. Many of these people have had their sentences reduced, meaning they are "not executed but also not found,"
A friend of mine worked for the Innocence Initiative. (They represent death row inmates when DNA evidence proves they are likely innocent.) He has several stories about clearly bogus convictions that were extremely difficult to overturn because the prosecutor in the case went on to build a political or judicial career on their fame from said conviction.
- The US treatment Confederate iconography versus other nations
Yeah. This is what I meant by still using a progressive lens. If you believe that the civil war was about slavery, or the oppression of blacks, or even that the "stars and bars" was the Confederate flag, perhaps some independent study time will help you here. Hint: the civil war was crony capitalism vs everyone else, and the cronies won.
How is it not accurate to say that the Civil War was fought over States' rights to legalized slavery?
I went from liberal to libertarian. Now I can know the solution, and also never see the harsh results of the test of time.
I'm also a former liberal, mid-transition into libertarianism. But I'm not of the opinion that libertarianism has all the answers. Sometimes the free market is the best solution and sometimes it isn't. Chad and IlliniDave had a good 'toolbox' analogy for this in the Obamacare thread.

Locked