On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?

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Gilberto de Piento
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On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?

Post by Gilberto de Piento » Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:24 am

(Blatantly copied from from http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-to ... cal-party/)

In the hopes of proving some common ground exists...

Let's say you are a Democrat/progressive. On what issue(s) do you typically side with the Republicans/conservatives on? Same question for Republicans/conservatives. What issue(s) do you think the Democrats/progressives are right about?

For example, I am a progressive but I support
* fiscal responsibility for the gov't and individuals (the government shouldn't spend more than it takes in when measured over the long term)
* personal responsibility for many issues (though the government has a place in teaching people how to help themselves).
* guns (with some limitations)

Not to say that Democrats are against the above, they just don't emphasize them to the same extent the Republicans do.

What do you think?

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?

Post by IlliniDave » Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:22 am

I'm neither a Democrat/progressive nor a Republican/conservative. Just picking from topics of recent popularity:

I generally favor environmental preservation (being a "wilderness guy" at heart).

I generally favor smaller federal government and more local minding of affairs.

I support the second amendment and personal freedoms in general (I lean libertarian there).

I favor curbing the illegal flow of people into the country but favor compassionate treatment of illegal immigrants already here and, if possible, a more responsive/efficient system of legal immigration. I don't have a problem with pausing entry from specific countries whose internal systems are known to have broken broken down to the point it is difficult to ascertain who a person really is, but I don't favor any permanent bans or bans based on ethnicity or broad religious beliefs.

I think the gov't has a role in ensuring equal opportunity for all insofar as it is possible, but trying to force equal outcomes is going too far.

I'm not a big fan of broad, comprehensive domestic surveillance and that includes not only the government but private commercial entities like Google.

I do think we need to move closer to some form universal healthcare, but recognize the ACA was flawed and really, sold on lies. HSA's alone are not the answer either even though they are good things and should be made readily available to all people.

I tend to be a "home team" guy and consider myself a US citizen first and a "world citizen" second.

I realize there are possibly some inherent contradictions in my short list above, and that there can be merit to dissimilar viewpoints as well as downsides to mine.

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?

Post by Campitor » Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:25 am

Not an exhaustive list but here it goes...

What the Democrats get right:
  • Universal Health Care - we can afford it and we need it for those who truly can't pay for their own insurance.
  • The EPA - we need it but some of the rules need to be streamlined/consolidated. I shouldn't need a team of lawyers to figure out if I'm in compliance or not.
  • We don't need military spending that exceeds the budget of the next 10 largest armies combined.
  • Wall Street oversight so they don't screw our economy and the middle class.
What the Democrats get wrong:
  • Unchecked immigration with no respect to legal/illegal entry.
  • Welfare with no personal responsibility or audits. I have numerous anecdotes I've personally witnessed of people abusing the system. We could eliminate all government spending except for social services and we still wouldn't have a balanced budget.
  • Bigger government is good - I don't think it is.
  • Growing the deficit isn't a concern
  • Focusing on identity politics and safe spaces to the detriment of free speech.
What traditional Republicans get right:
  • The 2nd amendment. I think all law-abiding citizens should be able to own and carry a gun for multiple reasons. My personal safety is my responsibility and I should be able to defend myself when needed. Cops only show up after a crime has been committed.
  • Balanced budget
  • Small government.
  • Preserving and maintaining our wilderness areas and natural resources.
What current Republicans get wrong:
  • There should be no loopholes for gun background checks.
  • Lip service to balanced budgets.
  • Focusing on identity politics.
  • Wanting to intervene in activities and relationships between consenting adults.
  • Lip service to small government philosophy while increasing the political/military industrial complex.

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?

Post by bryan » Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:45 pm

What is the opposite of Libertarianism (the thing I am closest, afaict), Minarchism, or AnCap? Totalitarianism, fascism, authoritarianism, communism, socialism, theocracy, etc?

Well, I concede dictatorships are much more effective, efficient.

I think so much freedom allows powers w/o counters to arise. There is not enough competition for many subjects (since we live in a universe of limited resources) and the incentives just about always point towards forming these monopolies. Non-aggression is great until a party becomes so powerful that they will likely use aggression/force.

I've heard these called "market failures" but probably more accurate to say the market allows for outcomes that are anti-thetical to the philosophies of Libertarians. The market also allows for outcomes that are flat-out subjectively bad. The market is not benevolent. Some go so far as to call the market malevolent.

It all comes down to what you want the future to look like, I reckon. The future I would like to see differs from the future some Libertarian Party policies would likely bring about, especially those that leave folks in societal traps (e.g. if you are born in the wrong place at the wrong time or don't have enough money). Libertarianism (or something else...) puts far too much faith/emphasis on financial capital as the driving force behind shaping the future.

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?

Post by BRUTE » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:08 pm

to brute, both parties are the "other" party.

- love of brown humans, if only because brute wants to bed 50% of them
- it's hard to respect humans that believe in magic ("religion"), and certainly magical thinking shouldn't grant extra rights
- who gives a shit if dudes want to marry other dudes, let them. let them marry cake if that's what they want.
- abortion is great, and more of it is better
- brute doesn't care about the christian virtue moralizing of many on the right (i.e. drugs, work ethic, family values, traditions, blablabla)
- drugs are great and should all be legal
- most humans are mostly a product of their environment, and therefore moralizing/demonizing undesired behavior (and even criminal behavior) is mostly absurd. humans act because they have reasons to act, not because of the inherent goodness/badness of their character.
- war is dumb
- sometimes, government can deliver a better solution than the market
- who gives a fuck what toilet some humans want to use

- things and services cost money and need to be paid for
- government is inherently immoral, the only argument for it is that it can be the least bad option sometimes.
- taxes are immoral and counter-productive by definition, with some specific exceptions
- humans have no inherent rights to tell other humans what to do, or what to subsidize
- runaway entitlement
- government debt is absurdly immoral and nefarious
- there is no right to anything, be it healthcare, food, shelter, or water. that's not the market's fault, life starts out sucking - the market delivers solutions, but it's not morally required to deliver the solutions humans desire. saying otherwise is imposing personal beliefs on other humans, which make up "the market".
- political correctness has run amok to the degree that it's now fashionable to say racist and misogynist things just to spite PC, and to be honest, it's hard to take alarmists serious after decades of calling everything and everyone racist.
- if humans are OK with the planet burning and the human race dying out, that's fine. no moral obligation to save humanity or the planet.

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?

Post by ducknalddon » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:06 pm

It's quite interesting listening to debates on American politics from outside the US, it's so removed from our own politics (UK) that it makes me wonder if there is something in the Overton window.

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