Men's rights movement - opinions

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
steveo73
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Re: Men's rights movement - opinions

Post by steveo73 »

Scott 2 wrote:My point is not the person who has been rated a 10 is intolerable.

My point is the act of rating someone a 10, placing them on a pedestal, then performing to win them, creates a dysfunctional relationship. Yeah, the 10 has to participate, but it's pretty impossible to normalize the scenario created by the suitor. The kind response is to reject the attention, but the temptation to use the other person often wins. Early on, the 10 might not even understand what is happening.

Someone caught up in the pattern, on either side, is going to have a tough experience in relationships.
So rating women like this is completely stupid. Women would do this as well but again it's crazy. Personally I think on the whole women do this better than men.

steveo73
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Re: Men's rights movement - opinions

Post by steveo73 »

Stahlmann wrote:
Scott 2 wrote:My point is not the person who has been rated a 10 is intolerable.

My point is the act of rating someone a 10, placing them on a pedestal, then performing to win them, creates a dysfunctional relationship. Yeah, the 10 has to participate, but it's pretty impossible to normalize the scenario created by the suitor. The kind response is to reject the attention, but the temptation to use the other person often wins. Early on, the 10 might not even understand what is happening.

Someone caught up in the pattern, on either side, is going to have a tough experience in relationships.
Hey, hey! How about whole dating is pedestalization of women (needs')?
Who is responsible for: asking out, planning and paying?
I am not bitter. I just want point there are many guys who can not join the fun bus.
http://i.imgur.com/2MstAzl.gif
And am I mad? A bit, I would say. Why should I need to organize my whole life to receive some (external) validation from women?
I am not in denial. I see, sex is fun (and I see consequences which women bear - but hey,hey! Who has received the pill in 70"s?). But I am being outcompeted and I am willing to pay for it (but in this case I have some demands and I stand up for them - other issue I have mentioned in different post).
You are so caught up in this false reality. You also bring it back to dating and sex when earlier you tried to make it about something else.

To answer your question - yes you are mad. You don't have to have these false beliefs. If you don't want to pay then don't. If you don't want to plan something than don't. Plenty of women will be fine with that.

steveo73
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Re: Men's rights movement - opinions

Post by steveo73 »

C40 wrote:Consumerism
I'd say that for guys like us, who are ERE-types, the biggest challenge in dating and relationships is the impact that consumerism has had on them. Some really stupid expectations are now set in place in dating, ones that came from consumerism. Expensive dates, flowers, diamond rings, "romantic getaways" (don't even get me started on how stupid it is to think that it's romantic for people (who don't have kids at home) to go stay in some hotel room)). Now both men and women think these are an important part of relationships. For the men uninterested in spending on these things, a significant portion of women are eliminated as potential mates.

Viewed on it's own, a man's refusal to consumerize dating is absolutely valid and realistic. I mean, flowers and diamond rings mean fuck-all (nothing) about love. The problem is that in the cultural landscape of dating, women spend a bunch of money and time on making themselves look more attractive, and men spend a bunch of money (and time earning it) on dates, rings, etc. That's the current deal. When the man points out how stupid it is to do his side of this, it's not fair within the dating landscape when women are still spending all the time and effort on their appearance.
There is though a massive middle approach here. You don't have to buy into consumerism and lots of women don't buy into consumerism. You can buy into this a little. You can fit in and get laid or have relationships.

A good woman if she loves you will be completely accepting of a life that is a little less normal that what occurs within the consumerist society that we live in.

Riggerjack
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Re: Men's rights movement - opinions

Post by Riggerjack »

Why do think if it is necessary to discuss: male suicides, discrimination in workplace, bias in divorce, problem with homelessness, mental aggression from women?
OK.
male suicides
I don't care. Sorry, it's callous, but there you have it. Someone opted out, I hope they thought it thru, and minimized their pain. Next subject.
discrimination in workplace,
yup. Discussed it. It happens, get over it. It's much too easy to succeed to get too worked up over. Spoiler alert: the boss' relatives have it easier, too.
bias in divorce
this seems to be getting better, but honestly, everyone gets screwed in divorce. I recommend avoiding it.
problem with homelessness
OK, now you are really reaching. I'm sure someone, somewhere can blame an empowered woman for taking his job, apartment, dog, options, will, self respect, etc. Hell I even know her name. But I think your main culprits are going to be drugs and alcohol.
mental aggression from women?
Damn, I must just too great a guy, because I don't know what you are talking about. :D

Anything else you want me to talk about?

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C40
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Re: Men's rights movement - opinions

Post by C40 »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
@C40: I didn't even realize how uggo I was at the age of 51 (almost 52!) until I looked at your first chart,..... I may need to start a new thread entitled Late Dating Extreme!!! which you may have reason to consult if you find yourself still single or single again when you are over the age of 46 ;)
Well hey, the chart says that on average, a woman your age is as attractive as a 21 year old man, which is a pretty darn good I think. And if you use 'Sexy nerd' to describe yourself, you're probably well above that.

And yeah, I'd say there's an 85% chance I'll be unmarried at age 46*, so make that thread :-D (*Partly because even if I then have what I consider a partner for life, I'd probably still prefer not to marry)

slowtraveler
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Re: Men's rights movement - opinions

Post by slowtraveler »

Fascinating thread.

I edited my post to make it more relevant to OP.

@OP, I agree that women currently have a dating bias and are often put on a pedestal by society. Women often get less jail for same crime. Skin colors often have a similar effect but hey, our current president is evidence that biases are not insurmountable.

We're all human. An attractive human will attract people regardless of these biases and I think that's the whole point of the Demise of Guys book you pointed out. That we have the power to change this. I want to be someone I respect and trust- that's my primary focus now. Quitting some of the bad habits ironically mentioned in those books you pointed out.

I love that the issue is being brought up because this awareness will likely lead to men reclaiming their masculinity, having more and better role models, joining support groups, and becoming higher quality for the journey.

In the end, men and women are both humans, on the same team to create more amazing humans. When society loses sight of that, both men and women lose.

@ C40-Thanks for the charts. They explain lot of my lack of success meeting older women on OKC. I had to go out and meet them in classes/events instead. I have to say though, women in their 30's (in general) are a lot more into health, nature, spirituality, frugality, HONESTY, low-drama, and passionate, uninhibited celebration of the best kinds of fun than women in their early 20's so I think that chart may be biased towards looks (as mentioned in the axis.)
Last edited by slowtraveler on Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:02 am, edited 3 times in total.

slowtraveler
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Re: Men's rights movement - opinions

Post by slowtraveler »

I just watched 2 videos on the topic by an author of one of the books initially mentioned, Philip Zimbardo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMJgZ4s2E3w Demise of Guys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgAu1i6aChs Why Boys are Failing
I agree about addiction to arousal (novelty) creating many problems, particularly for boys. This is a very fixable challenge. He talks about contributing, becoming future-oriented rather than present-hedonistic, losing fat, exercising, writing, reading, communicating, meditating, connecting to male role models, mentoring others, letting go of arousal addictions are some personal solutions.

The 2nd video gives some cultural solutions as well on how to empower men. Which I see as a noble and worthwhile cause that will take place in our lifetime. Both genders can have their power and create more together without dishonoring the gifts of the other.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Men's rights movement - opinions

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Stahlmann: I'm old enough to just barely be your biological grandmother, so I am tending towards feeling some sympathy for your plight or cause. However, I must inform you that based on my experiences as a female who self-describes as sexually-submissive and has been in relationships with men from generations/cultures/lifestyle-cults in which male dominance was assumed/legally-enforced/accepted, your rough attribution of cause, or likely cure, is just plain wrong. Here is an excellent documentary that I hope might serve to demonstrate why.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs9XSTt-DIE

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Stahlmann
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Re: Men's rights movement - opinions

Post by Stahlmann »

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Last edited by Stahlmann on Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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C40
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Re: Men's rights movement - opinions

Post by C40 »

When I lived in St Louis, I used to have a female friend let me watch her go through mens' profiles on Tinder. After like 10 minutes of seeing the pictures guys used, and seeing how she made swiping choices**, I wanted to start a hobby business of taking good pictures of guys that they could use on their dating profiles.

If you want, PM me to get my email address, and send me the pictures you used on Tinder. Also send me what had written as your profile text. I'll tell you if you should use different or better pictures, or change the text. To have no real chance on Tinder because of your looks, I think you have to be in the lowest 20th percentile. Yeah, the looks matter, but - especially as a man - a huge part of the impression you make on Tinder is the quality of your pictures and how well-written your profile is.

As far as the more interesting sexual life, that's something I've worked on a lot, and it comes with challenges. I've been good at starting them, but the main challenge I've had is in finding partners that actually end up available for a long term relationship that is primarily sexual.




**generally, men often make the decision based on the first picture and may not even look at the other pictures or profile text until after matching... whereas women look at nearly all pictures and text first. The men are just looking for a reason to say yes, and the women are looking for a reason to say no. Sometimes while watching my friend swipe, I'd see a guy that looks cool and that I wanted to be friends with, and she'd get to the last picture of him and he looks a bit disheveled or sweaty when he shouldn't obviously be, and she's go "aww HELLLL NO, JESUS!!!"

BRUTE
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Re: Men's rights movement - opinions

Post by BRUTE »

Stahlmann wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 11:25 am
I would like to have more interesting sexual life.
2-4 acts per month is ,,expected"

Assumptions:
- I am rather loner
- I get frustrated very easily (in terms what average man must face in dating scene)
- I am able to invest in monogamous relationship, but not in marriage
- of course the ERE way
- Tinder was a complete failure to me (so I am not in top10-30% males in terms of LMS)
- I can lower my expectations, but BMI stands for something...
has Stahlmann considered that with this set of attributes and wishes, a relationship might just not be a good strategy to fill his needs? seems hardly worth the effort to be frustrated for a whole month, just in order to get 2 bangs out of it.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Men's rights movement - opinions

Post by classical_Liberal »

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Last edited by classical_Liberal on Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Campitor
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Re: Men's rights movement - opinions

Post by Campitor »

Riggerjack wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:49 am

In short, life is fair, it screws over everyone. Tracking inequities keeps your focus away from where you should focus, solutions.

We all make our own deals. This applies to everyone in your life. If you don't like to terms, change them. The act of changing the terms of one deal, develop the skills to make better terms next time.
Well said. +100.

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Stahlmann
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Re: Men's rights movement - opinions

Post by Stahlmann »

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Last edited by Stahlmann on Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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C40
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Re: Men's rights movement - opinions

Post by C40 »

I'm starting a new project today called "Sexy times for Stahlmann". I'm serious. I promise you that if you do and learn the things I suggest, you'll eventually be getting laid enough that paying for sex will start to seem as crazy as paying someone to play a video game with you.
Last edited by C40 on Sat May 27, 2017 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BRUTE
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Re: Men's rights movement - opinions

Post by BRUTE »

Jack Reacher: I'm on a budget, Sandy.
Sandy: What?
Jack Reacher: I can't afford you.
Sandy: I'm not a hooker.
Jack Reacher: Oh, then I *really* can't afford you.

Locked