The Trump Problem (the real one)

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bryan
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by bryan »

Have you watched through "Black Mirror" or read some Neal Stephenson? Good future dystopia stories that seem probable.

jacob
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by jacob »

@bryan - Of course I have. All of both of them :geek:

bryan
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by bryan »

(sorry, meant that q for @7Wannabe5.)

I recommend watching/reading them to everyone. My mom has an allergy to SciFi though..

BRUTE
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by BRUTE »

Stephenson reminds brute that the human race, in all its flaws, is beautiful.
Black Mirror reminds brute that the human race is the worst thing ever and deserves to die.

George the original one
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by George the original one »

jacob wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:19 pm
So if immobility is a universal feature of some humans (I can confirm the existence of at least a few former class mates, say 20%, with similar profiles from where I grew up) ... then how do we "fix" it to deal with an increasingly complex/mobile economy ... or should we acknowledge this as an inherent limiter and work with it in other ways?!
My world here in Oregon is sooo different... about 50% of Oregon's population weren't born here and that's held constant since before WWII. Growing up in the Portland area, I can't think of any kids that hadn't been at least as far as the beach or Mt. Hood or the state capital in Salem, so nearly every one had traveled at least out of their home county (at least one or two counties away). School field trips often take/took kids out of the county (and I'm not talking about just going from Portland, OR to Vancouver, WA, a mere 20 miles). If I think about my few immediate neighbors, only one might have been born in this county (former sheriff deputy), the rest of us moved here from elsewhere. The former sheriff deputy would have had to go to the state police academy, so they obviously moved around some.

Thinking of my friends from high school & college... well, they all definitely traveled outside the state in their youth & young adulthood, even if they stayed in Portland to finish college or trade school.

I'm not saying I doubt that there are immobile populations, just that it isn't a feature way out west here.

black_son_of_gray
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by black_son_of_gray »

I've lived in various places in Ohio, ranging from affluent suburbs to impoverished rural counties, and it isn't surprising to me that a decent chunk of kids in the poor/rural areas wouldn't have ventured outside the county before adulthood. This immobility may be more of a symptom of political dysfunction rather than a cause of political dysfunction. For example, it's easy to construct a realistic scenario of immobility:
  • Few jobs either for the parents or the kids. If parents have them, they don't pay well, or they have two jobs. These are the kinds of jobs that you don't get vacation/paid time off for, and that also have highly variable work schedules. So for lack of money/fear of losing job, you can't venture too far away from home.
  • Locations of extended family. Often it is close by - same town or one over, eliminating the need to go far. Or they might be so far away, they they can't visit them (see above point on jobs). This also keeps a person from wanting to move away, as they'd be leaving all their family/isolated.
  • School is where a kid spends a big chunk of his day, and they are often very poorly funded (field trips are luxury) black holes of opportunity. For example, in Ohio the state's Supreme Court ruled 4 separate times that the educational system of Ohio was so broken as to violate the state constitution!
    [schools]...sometimes in such poor condition that they did not meet even the state's minimum standards for a humane prison
    -the wiki link above
    I went to an all wood –all wood- middle school that had no sprinkler system. I went to a school in Mt. Gilead where classes were held in a basement converted coal bin.
    http://www.ideastream.org/stateimpact/2 ... court-case

    I remember at the time, hearing that one school was using history textbooks that included something like: "One day, man may go to the moon"...
    Even the valedictorian of one of these high schools will probably have a tough time adjusting to college and may still be woefully under-prepared, even if they could afford it. If you aren't going to college and are pretty much destined to have a low-wage retail job, why would you move somewhere else to have the same job?
And more to the point of state/local political dysfunction, guess the Ohio state politicians have done to remedy the unconstitutional education system in the last 20 years since the rulings? Nothing. That's just a single example in one place, but you could look at the massive issues in Flint, MI as another case study, etc, all throughout the Rustbelt states that tipped Trump. One lens to this issue is that frustration with local and statewide political dysfunction spilled into the national political scene.

On a different note: Millennials are moving a lower rates, I dunno if that means a more generationally myopic viewpoint/worldview projected forward or not...

7Wannabe5
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@bryan:

I have seen 4 or 5 episodes of Black Mirror, and really enjoyed them, barring the one with the pig. Surprisingly, to the best of my recollection, I have not read anything by Stephenson. I have read Gibson, Dick, Pynchon, and Wallace whom the internet claims are his influences.

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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by jacob »

OMGWTFBBQ ... your erudition has a crucial hole in it. This must be fixed ASAP.

Being a fellow fast-processor maybe start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baroque_Cycle ... and note that it was entirely hand-written https://www.wired.com/2009/01/the-entire-terr/ (note the pile of draft papers) for some strange reason.

Lesser mortals (particular anyone here) should start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seveneves (Seven Eves---as in Adam and Eve except without Adam, but who needs that when you got genetic engineering) ... which I thoroughly enjoyed mainly because, as @brute aptly noted, it's a long story about how natural human impulses proceed to fuck up everything in an emergency situation that involves the destruction of the Earth down to Population:7 ... only to be saved by the sanity of the seven remaining scientists (all women, hence the title) who get stranded on the moon after the Earth's surface gets razed. It's pretty much INT*-porn. It if was up to me, I'd have ended the book before coming back around year 7000 for the last 1/3 of the book.

For a nerdier book, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anathem ... And for some generic kind of action/Bourne like narrative that could be played by Matt Damon in a movie, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reamde (I read that during a flu-bout a couple of years ago.)

He's written earlier and later stuff, but these would be my picks.

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jennypenny
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by jennypenny »

Meh, Seveneves is a guy's version of how women would act. It's very good, but the women are kinda 'type'. I liked the women in Reamde better. And maybe D.O.D.O., although the story wasn't as good.

edit: There was actually a character in D.O.D.O. that reminded me of you @7. She used her brain and sex appeal in equal measure, and pretty much anything else at her disposal. (definitely a compliment)
Last edited by jennypenny on Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Riggerjack
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Riggerjack »

Yeah, I agree with GOO, but...

Looking back at an old logging town, when logging was dying, we all left.

Only, it turns out we didn't. There are still about half my class still living on the peninsula. It looks like those that stayed either had strong family connections, so they found something local, and those who are truly poor, low in income, and low in skills, with minimal social capital as well. But we had a close by city with massive growth, and most didn't need to go any further.

So I guess the "brain drain" is really selecting for pulling out the middle of the "local support network" spectrum. Leaving a core with strong community ties and most of the opportunities, and a separate community in the same place of all those who didn't leave and didn't thrive, and don't have much opportunity. The strong need for those that remain to differentiate themselves from those who simply didn't go explains a lot of what has happened to the Red party.

Honestly, I expect this solution to be telecommuting. Cities are expensive, and most business doesn't have much need for specific land. This will be the next big productivity boost, moving jobs to where they can be done best and cheapest.

7Wannabe5
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@jacob:

lol- Added first volume to stack.
jennypenny wrote:Meh, Seveneves is a guy's version of how women would act.
Like naked pillow fights at slumber parties? Will have to check out D.O.D.O. too.

bryan
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by bryan »

Didn't mean to derail the thread, lol. I just found it curious that automating away "farmers, ranchers, foresters, and miners" etc seemed to be too big a hurdle (it is basically a given in most stories of the future). Sure, that future may introduce centralized, black swan, risks (many stories touch on this as well), but on the whole it seems to be where we are headed (i.e. it shows up in both utopian and dystopian futures).

Dystopian stories give us an idea of threats; utopian stories sort of do the opposite (not sure how to word it). Stories that just say X technology will be good/bad are worthless and maybe even evil. For instance, is having a cheap, easy, hyper-available and nutritious foodstuff good or bad? How about ubiquitous, strong DRM? Neither (and both) so that's not really the question one should be asking. Stories train humans (and thus influence future outcomes i.e. complex system, feedback loops, etc.).

Snow Crash is the one about VR and collapse of nation-states (power vacuum filled by corporations). Definitely keep watching more Black Mirror. A few of them are Oscar-worthy, imo.

No one passed judgment on my boarding school idea? I rather like it..

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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by jacob »

Since we're currently in full derailment-mode, don't miss Charlie Brooker's (of Black Mirror) other stuff (found on youtube): Screenwipe, electionwipe, gameswipe, and other wipes ...

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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by jacob »

@bryan - Isn't boarding school just a younger version of the late-adolescent US college experience?

bryan
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by bryan »

@jacob, I would say so, yes. Main thing being the cost being back-stopped by taxpayers to make it a common thing for a youngster to travel out of county/state for (a presumably higher quality) school. Plenty of pitfalls one could imagine, of course, but on the whole it sounds like a nice program.

suomalainen
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by suomalainen »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:34 pm
jennypenny wrote:Meh, Seveneves is a guy's version of how women would act.
Like naked pillow fights at slumber parties?
Wait. What are you saying? Is this not a thing? My world comes crashing down around me.

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