What aspects of today's society will we be ashamed of in sixty years?

[Ego]

@7W, I am not 100% consistent and admit to cultivating rationalizations for my infrequent airline travel and frequent use of airmail. I enjoy reading your long paragraphs of complex rationalizations because they help me to understand how I germinate and grow my own.

[7Wannabe5]

Consistency? That's a whole 'nother metric can of worms. I highly doubt I hit 18% even on a good day. How can anybody behave consistently when there is new information coming in every minute? For instance, just yesterday I read a study that proved that people with fat thighs live longer than people with skinny thighs, and I have already changed my behavior in alignment with this factoid

However, I would note for the record that when I was teaching high school level Home Economics yesterday, I did suggest that the Halloween Party menu for 50 might better be adjusted to include 40 portions vegetarian/vegan and 10 portions meat alternative, rather than the opposite proportion which was required in the assignment, and I informed the class about the availability of Kosher marshmallows.

I think shooting for 100% Vegan is about as likely to succeed as my suggestion of only allowing men to have sex with women over the age of 50 in order to reduce population. I think the term used in the article Jacob posted was something like "plasticity" of intended audience.

[Jason]

I'm American, so I can only respond to American society.

The concept of shame is more prevalent in older societies i.e. those dating back to the feudal period, where shame was utilized as public deterrent. That's why in Japan and other Asian countries, despite their economic and technological advancement, when there is corporate malfeasance there is a public display of contrition. There is also a higher suicide rate amongst those in authority that fail. They die on their own sword.

In America, where we value independence and rugged individualism, and have moved away from our puritan roots, shame is really not a part of our culture. That's why we are a country of second chances. We love the rise-fall-rise narrative.

But recently, and I'm not sure exactly when, its moved in the complete opposite direction and that's what I think we will feel ashamed about the most - not only our complete lack of shame but the fact that we live in a Kardashian world of public exhibitionism where the very lack of shame, virtue, and accomplishment are rewarded. At least that's what I hope.

[EMJ]

60 years ago:
The Lost Children of Tuam
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... ldren.html

[bryan]

@EMJ, nice article, as well as the interviews with Catherine, etc, on youtube. Empathy indeed.

Really mental to realize (or be reminded) how close to the present "history" really is.. and how much is lost.

Maybe not recording/archiving our waking lives for history (like in the Black Mirror episode "The Entire History of You") will be seen as a big mistake ("a shame"; the dead can't feel shame and I doubt their progeny will have to worry too much..)? I know we wish we had more records of past cultures and I know many families wished they had more records of previous generations. In fact.. imagine the EHoY universe after a generation or two... very interesting (like, verrry interesting).

[BRUTE]

brute wishes there was less history. humans are doomed to repeat it anyway, might as well not put spoilers everywhere.

[slowtraveler]

@7w
"Shrinking the boundary down to level of own skin, contents of a back-pack and flow of money from a stock of passively-maintained productive assets is not a model without consequences."
Sounds mildly similar to me, though I'm not fully passive in my investments or down to just 1 backpack yet. What consequences are you alluding to? You make them sound steeper than I believe them to be.

@op
I believe in the singularity so I don't think this is truly knowable, not that the future ever was. But I hope we feel shame in having worked so hard, in having chased the carrot so much. In working 100 hour works and sleeping less than 8 hours a night. In skipping dinners with family, friends, loved ones to make more money. In letting companies externalize so many costs for the sake of higher earnings at the expense of the environment.

[Jason]

60 years ago:
The Lost Children of Tuam
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... ldren.html

That seems to cut to the very soul of a country.

And I'm thinking there will be a movie.

[7Wannabe5]

@slowtraveler:

When I ran my small business out of my house, I stored my inventory nearby, and I paid my own children to work for me. Then my children went off to college, and I shipped all my inventory out to Amazon's warehouses. So, the situation had become more abstract, but it was still pretty clear that I was outsourcing work my children previously did to some employees of Amazon, maybe robots or humans who I did not and would not come to know.

Now, it is true that I did not pay my children very much, and I did require that they do work such as hauling around 40 lb. boxes full of books in a barn in January in Michigan, BUT I also hired my daughter's best friend, so that the two of them could chit-chat and have snacks together after school while they packed the books for shipment, and I did allow my son to have complete autonomy over the tasks he performed. So, it was all rather mutually beneficial.

So, the way I see it is that when you are passively invested in a business, and hoping it will succeed, that is just like if I had been hoping my business was so successful I could also employ, house, and feed another baby that I didn't have. The fact that there is just this very, very, long and skinny umbilical cord connecting you to your passive income flow in your system diagram doesn't negate the fact that there was some pregnant Chinese woman in a smock top working in the factory you owned 1/10,000,000th share of for two months last year. And, I'm not talking about moral responsibility or anything like that. I'm talking about math and science. Either something or someone is growing on the planet to feed you through the umbilical cord, or you and your fellow investors are just hoping that something is growing on the planet and really that is just a balloon under the Chinese worker woman's smock, and not your baby.

[EMJ]

In a situation such as the nuns in Tuam, a question is: why did no one say anything? Easy to think that each of us would speak up if we knew. But would we, would you?

An interesting discussion on whistle-blowing to think about in this and other contexts:

But if you are thinking of leaking, should you do it? Think hard. Only a very few who could, possibly should.

There may be legal consequences and perhaps criminal prosecution. (There may even be legal consequences for discussing it like this. I hope not.) They will certainly lose their job if discovered. They may become unemployable. It’s one thing to enjoy being a cause celebre, or have the quiet satisfaction of bringing about change, quite another to figure out what to put on LinkedIn and how to describe the lack of a reference when you’ve just blown up your career.

Whistle-blowers generally have their lives wrecked. This is pretty much universal. If you are a whistle-blower, you can say goodbye to several years of your life, and perhaps never fully recover your peace of mind and faith in mankind. There is a phenomenal amount of comfortable cowardice going round, and it’s horrible to be on the wrong end of it.

http://crookedtimber.org/2017/10/29/sho ... t-reports/

[7Wannabe5]

That's why it's better to live someplace where most people have their own 5 acres and there is a free press etc., so most people have some f.u. flexibility. One of my many red-headed Irish-American cousins was one of the primary whistle-blowers on the SEC, and I think he is doing okay. The problem is that many people think that loyalty and discretion are virtues, because (for obvious reasons) they have been trained to believe that they are. Shame can only grow in a closet, and it is one of the primary Vices along with Gluttony, Rage, Judgment, Sloth, Martyrdom, Ambition, Envy, and Greed.

[ira_kart]

Trying to find water on Mars and Moon when we make our oceans dirty.

Trying to find habitable planets in Space when we are driving our own beautiful planet to the brink of death, why to colonise them and make them dirty and move on? Why cant we realise this Eath is living and breathing.

[bryan]

@ira_kart, seems like that might be attribution error (which is something that is personally frustrating, especially on social media). I mean, folks saying we need to expand onto other planets are not saying we shouldn't sustain the Earth, folks wanting to find water out there are not saying we shouldn't keep the rivers and oceans clean? I think?

[ira_kart]

@bryan - for me, it is n't about the people who are arguing the case on social media. Social media does not capture the thoughts of the whole earth. It is about humanity's (as a whole species) quest for betterment. yes, I agree those on social media are not saying we do not want to sustain Earth, but my question for us, is why do we (Govt+Corp+people) continue to spoil this place we call our home(Remembering Carl Sagan's Pale blue dot where he says this is our home) and still continue to explore outer space. Why can't we spend the resources (money+ human will+efforts) we use on exploration of outer space on helping everyone on Earth lead a better life and then lead the quest for space with everyone on equal footing? i understand this is never going to happen, but just a wishful thinking on behalf of our species. I do not like ourselves to be painted as bad compared to others on this Earth.

[bryan]

I meant social media for the general case, where it is apparently used to point out some hypocrisy, irony, etc, and get internet points. Here's a not very good example since it's just a joke and it's just the first I could find: https://twitter.com/mckellogs/status/983402706843860993 the possible error is that since allegedly old people think young folks spend too much time on the phone instead of X, these specific old people are hypocrites. I've seen some real humdingers, sadly.

[Mikeallison]

I think kids eating tide pods might be one that is frowned upon, or maybe the new craze where they snort condoms for fun

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... -bad-idea/

Remember "children are our future"

[bryan]

From that link:

In fact, over the past five years, U.S. poison control centers have received only one report of a condom inhalation.

As The Post's Abby Ohlheiser wrote this week: “The only thing viral about the condom challenge right now is the moral panic about the idea of teens doing the condom challenge.”

The condom-snorting challenge was thrust into the national spotlight after Enriquez discussed it during a San Antonio school workshop designed to give parents and teachers a glimpse into the things their teens may be seeing online. And it was portrayed in headlines as “every parent’s worst nightmare” and “the latest dangerous social media trend.”

“The word ‘trend’ is the most important aspect of these stories,” said Alex Kasprak, a reporter at Snopes, a fact-checking site that rated the “condom challenge” panic as “mostly false.”

The craze is taking hold of a certain demographic.. and it's not the young folks. I hope "we" will be ashamed of being so easily fooled by "fake news".

Aside.. it's interesting to see how folks cling on to "bad" outlets of information (similar to feeding trolls? or maybe the trolls are feeding them..). I've been muting/blocking accounts on twitter that I feel are subversive, insidious and it's kind of sad when I see folks quote-retweeting (usually to argue with) those accounts.

Another not very good example of what I was talking about (attribution error) is here: https://twitter.com/awealthofcs/status/ ... 1367377920 hints at folks preference to generalize and not isolating attribution sources (A versus B versus "the media" or "the internet" or "liberals" or "conservatives" etc.).

[Mikeallison]

Aside.. it's interesting to see how folks cling on to "bad" outlets of information

Condom snorting compilation video

https://youtu.be/xHN59uGCn9M


I'm not sure how to process you giving disinformation while talking about disinformation lol. Many, many more videos where that came from. Unless you think these videos are fake? Pretty good special effects!

I don't know exactly how popular this is, and neither does snopes, (which is a horrible fact checking site by the way, I wouldn't trust them to fact check an expiration date) but by the video evidence I think it is safe to say that many more people are doing it than the one CDC case. Thus making my social commentary perfectly relevant thank you very much. Now I would politely ask you to let me make fun of teenagers in peace! And get off my lawn while you are at it! Darn kids.

[Kriegsspiel]

The craze is taking hold of a certain demographic.. and it's not the young folks. I hope "we" will be ashamed of being so easily fooled by "fake news".

I would think with the advent of really good video fakes we're going to be getting fooled a lot more in the future. Maybe in the future they'll laugh at us for getting fooled with only words.

[bryan]

Hey, I was just quoting form the article you linked to I admit kids these days aren't using Facebook any longer.. but I figure I would have at least seen something on Twitter about it before the "children are our future" reaction to it. I remember the TidePod trend for sure, but that was mostly a joke as well (not like "chubby bunny" or the cinnamon challenge etc.. most people joked about eating them but not actually eating them, making others think that they ate them).

The message is being pushed from or embraced by certain groups, for sure. I just checked my Uncle's facebook page and sure enough he has a bunch of shared posts about it (he shares a lot of fake news since 2016, earnestly) recently.