Political correctness run amok

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
ffj
Posts: 1934
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by ffj » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:12 pm

Anybody find this dude getting shitcanned disturbing and a touch hypocritical? I guess diversity only goes so far. Being mildly sarcastic here but I would be curious on what grounds they fired him.

IlliniDave
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by IlliniDave » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:37 pm

ffj wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:12 pm
Anybody find this dude getting shitcanned disturbing and a touch hypocritical? I guess diversity only goes so far. Being mildly sarcastic here but I would be curious on what grounds they fired him.
A company I interact with regularly (but am not employed by) actually had a mandatory training program for "including white males as diversity partners". They had to sit every employee down and explain to them that white men are indeed people too after things started going off the rails from an over-exuberant diversity program. So while certainly disturbing, what happened at Google it is not surprising.

slowtraveler
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by slowtraveler » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:24 pm

@ScriptBunny
"As someone in the tech field, cis-, and with two X chromosomes"
Woah, PC police on the scene. To mention this once, as if it has any relevancy whatsoever, is a transphobic micro-aggression. To mention it twice like this, is downright hate speech.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo7CgWH8jX4

On a more serious note: Political correctness originated in fascist regimes so this is an interesting time when they got Americans focused on disregard facts, obsess with politically correct.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... 3c75685400

It appears the current administration wants to make "climate change" a word to avoid in favor of "weather extremes". Social justice warriors saving the world yet again.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... hip-emails

@ IlliniDave
It's nice knowing there's some balance. Black, white, asian, latin, male, female, agendered, gender-fluids, and all other nationalities/genders deserve an equal shot based on merit.
Last edited by slowtraveler on Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:34 pm

@Brute: "Accuse your adversary of that which you are guilty of"...?

@FFJ: Disobeying sexual harassment policies? Creating a textbook hostile working environment? Creating a PR disaster for Google? Pick one.

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:51 pm

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:34 pm
@Brute: "Accuse your adversary of that which you are guilty of"...?
yes, because it's true?
Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:34 pm
@FFJ: Disobeying sexual harassment policies? Creating a textbook hostile working environment? Creating a PR disaster for Google? Pick one.
quoting science truthfully, starting a discussion about illegal work practices?
Last edited by BRUTE on Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

slowtraveler
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by slowtraveler » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:54 pm

In honor of political correctness. Here are the new lingual requirements for the USDA.

Avoid → use instead
Climate change → weather extremes
Climate change adaptation → resilience to weather extremes/intense weather events: drought, heavy rain, spring ponding
Reduce greenhouse gases → build soil organic matter, increase nutrient use efficiency
Sequester carbon → build soil organic matter

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:05 pm

@FFJ: BTW I definitely think it's a touch hypocritical for right-wingers (like the author and his supporters) to be upset over a corporation ending a voluntary employment arrangement in a right-to-work state. Is that the hypocrisy you meant?

@Felipe: I like your article about the origins of "political correctness" and found this portion particularly salient:

"It's evolved into something of a catch-all for the right, used to decry any number of things for any number of reasons.

The evolution, then, went like this. Political correctness was a standard of correctness applied by political institutions, which then became a dismissive way of referring to language-policing by non-political institutions, which then became a way of referring to disputes with political opponents. "Political correctness" is now largely a synonym for "the way the left does it." "

That is indeed how I usually see it used and how I think of the term: just a partisan dog-whistle in most instances.

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:55 pm

interview with the author of the Google Manifesto:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU

Riggerjack
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Riggerjack » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:38 pm

Wow, amateur production YouTube is NOT his medium.
He was younger than I expected. And I'll double down on my conflicted INTJ description. He'll be better off when his 15 minutes of flame are over, and he gets a job at a small company with less doublespeak. In the meantime, he should ignore the host, and hide in a basement for a year or so. Maybe catch up on some video games...

NPV
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by NPV » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:02 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:38 pm
Wow, amateur production YouTube is NOT his medium.
He was younger than I expected. And I'll double down on my conflicted INTJ description. He'll be better off when his 15 minutes of flame are over, and he gets a job at a small company with less doublespeak. In the meantime, he should ignore the host, and hide in a basement for a year or so. Maybe catch up on some video games...
I would say it depends on how important this topic is to him. I assume pretty important as he had the courage and conviction to develop this material and put it forward. But of course he likely did not foresee the size of the shitstorm it would create.

If it is important, he has the spotlight now and an unparalleled opportunity to defend his views in the media as lots of people want to hear him (mostly because they want to crucify him, but an opportunity still). This is a bit of a binary outcome situation - played right and with some luck public sentiment may turn to a degree once they see a calm, smart, shy biologist and if enough scientists come forward and explain that his science is spot on (as a few did on blogs, but public does not read blogs; has to be on TV / popular Youtube channels, perhaps joining the interviews with James Damore). However can also just keep getting worse with the media playing on his words and editing them to present him as the villain public wants to see. (Is live broadcast only something he can negotiate as a condition of media appearances?)

Career wise, it might actually make more sense for him at this point to work somewhere that actually has free speech as their motto (e.g., some of the offers he got from Gab, Wikileaks, maybe some libertarian media). At such a company he would be welcomed as a star (even more so if he decides to defend his views in media now), while at most Bay Area tech companies he would be not welcome or at best tolerated as long as he keeps his mouth shut on controversial topics.

TopHatFox
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by TopHatFox » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:13 pm

I don't know where I stand on this issue anymore. It's getting to the point of prejudice. I have met a few people that treat me rudely when they see a white male working in finance. Curt statements, assumptions about privilege, talking behind my back. This is without me speaking a word. Then I say I'm a migrant, first generation Hispanic person increasing diversity in a traditionally white space. They're nicer to me after that.

I call bullshit. Ironically, it's making me want to distance myself from people who harbor this prejudice. Creating divisiveness indeed. I used to think a place like Portland, OR, was a dream. I'm not so sure now. I even met a person that would hold a sort-of "quiet hate" every time I debated or disagreed with them. I still hold many of my progressive leanings, but they have to come with care and kindness. Antifa and these anecdotes, for example, are not that.
Last edited by TopHatFox on Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Riggerjack
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Riggerjack » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:23 pm

What video did you watch? Cuz the kid I saw didn't show any ability to do that. The scientist who blog aren't capable of defending him in the court of public opinion,if they wanted to.

The interesting thing for me is that Google is now too big and slow to even buy a good decision. They shouldn't have fired this guy. They should have buried him in sensitivity training, and let him quit when he couldn't take the doublespeak anymore.

Riggerjack
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Riggerjack » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:27 pm

@olaz, yeah I was once liberal, too. But then you spend time with people, and get over it.

By that, I mean people, not some snarky reference to progressive people...

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:34 pm

That interview sure seemed like a lot of, "At least I proved I was right all along!"

Yeah, amazing. You'd think this staggering intellect might have heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Again, who would have ever thought that making weird political manifestos, alienating half your coworkers, creating a PR disaster AND accusing your bosses of vague illegal practices without evidence, might possibly lead to dismissal?

After looking into the background of the interviewer, Jordan B Peterson, I'm not surprised they're so into each other. Evidently Peterson was disciplined by his university over a similar screed against trans pronouns. Seems he now makes his name as some kind of crusader against the "Political Correctness" bogeyman. It's nice when you can turn your passion into a living.

Likewise, Damore seems pretty interested in leveraging his own self-fulfilling prophecy of martyrdom to further this narrative of white racial oppression. Obviously there's a market for it. He should hope that works out for him, since I kinda doubt he'll find a similar position in tech, especially now that he's suing. Better brush up on that amateur Youtube production.

ffj
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by ffj » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:55 pm

@Spartan
So again, why was he fired? This?:

"Again, who would have ever thought that making weird political manifestos, alienating half your coworkers, creating a PR disaster AND accusing your bosses of vague illegal practices without evidence, might possibly lead to dismissal?"

Weird political manifesto? Come on, he saw an issue and stupidly thought he could openly discuss it. Do we know he alienated half on his co-workers? Maybe a majority are silently cheering him on but won't say a word because they want to keep their job. The PR disaster was caused by his former employer because in the spirit of diversity his views would have and should have been discussed without repercussion. We'll probably get to see if Google was indeed involved in illegal practices because of their poor response to this guy.

The kid is guilty of poor judgement in regards to what is allowable in a workplace. I agree with a lot of what Rigger has to say about him to be honest. He hasn't learned to play the game just yet.

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C40
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by C40 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:59 pm

Olaz wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:13 pm
I used to think a place like Portland, OR, was a dream. I'm not so sure now.
Portland can be a mess. One of the problems now is that many of the "natives" (people who were born there) are super pissed off about how all the outsiders moved to their city and caused their rent to go up. And believe me, they'll tell you all about it. (Meanwhile, all my family who live in Denver - another city where real estate has gone crazy - are selling their houses and deciding what to do with the windfalls)

I grew up mostly in a conservative state in the midwest. For 8 years (University and then some career work) I lived in a medium sized city in that state. People there were generally conservative and I didn't like a few parts of that (one of the big ones being that they, basically, were not sex positive). Something that was an oddity to me at the time was that this city supposedly had the highest per capita population of gay people second maybe only to San Francisco. (Something I haven't ever seen actual data for). Of course, gays are a group often treated poorly by conservatives. Why were there a lot of gays there? Why weren't the gays leaving? I didn't know. I learned later...

From there I moved to Madison, Wisconsin. I'd been there before on a work trip and had fun hanging out downtown, going out at night, and meeting women (I was there for an incredibly easy week of training, and I'd take a nap each evening and go out each night. Yeah, that was a lot of years ago now). Anyways, I thought I was more of a liberal than a conservative. I mean, they were more sex positive, more open-minded and more accepting of people. Right?

There were some cool things about Madison. But also some very very annoying things. The best example was when one of my bike racing buddies/team mates was featured in the University of Wisconsin newspaper. He was a student there and had won the lottery and bought tickets to the Rosebowl (a big football game). The university reminded people right at that time to make it perfectly clear that it was ok for students to sell these football tickets. This news article that my friend was featured in had the headline "These are the worst people in Madison". The article contained a list of 10-20 people who had posted their Rosebowl tickets for sale on Facebook marketplace. It went on and on about how these are horrible people, how they're ruining things for all the other students who like football, and even had a call to action asking the readers to harass them. My friend was a senior at the time, and was looking for jobs and applying to grad schools. When you googled "[his name] Madison" or something similar, the top result was that article - with the page headline "These are the worst people in Madison" and his name in bold in that block of text below.

Being in Madison showed me what was the best thing about people in that conservative city where I used to live - something I never realized while I was there - and why gay folks - the group possibly most often mistreated by conservatives - stayed there and seemed very comfortable. In that city, even if people had personal views against (or uncomfortable with or fearful of) what you were doing, they most all had a "live and let live" stance. Many of the gays I knew there were completely out and open about themselves because it was actually a very safe place to do so. Those conservatives who might have felt that being gay was wrong or gross still were willing and able to treat each one of them as an individual, to respect them, and to be nice to them. Kind of like - if I think you suck at parking, I can still understand that you are a good person. In Madison, though, if you don't adhere to what a surprisingly large percentage of what those folks think, they might lump you into that "worst people in the city" group really fucking quick.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:33 pm

@FFJ:
"So again, why was he fired? This?"

Yeah, that. Or... nothing? It's a right-to-work state. Why do they even need a reason?

"Do we know he alienated half on his co-workers?"

I suppose not. We know only that he alienated some of them. This article contains a few of their (Twitter) reactions: https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/5/16101 ... -manifesto

I agree that he's very naive.

Can I just say for the record, in case I gave the wrong impression, I don't necessarily agree with Google firing him outright over this (in fact I think I said so earlier); I merely saw it as immediately inevitable. Nor do I necessarily believe strongly in liberal affirmative action programs. (Although I am still curious how programs tailored to women are so discriminatory. If his entire argument revolves around women having different thinking and learning styles, why not have their own programs? It doesn't even require social science or political philosophy, it's common sense.)

My entire take is merely schadenfreude at the ironies of a right-winger experiencing the end result of his own ideology: ownership by the wealthy of their workers to the very level of their thoughts in a paranoid authoritarian setting void of any semblance of democracy, where he who has the gold makes the rules, and cuts off the gold at his own whim if you piss him off.

"Political correctness" is a spook, but the alienation of corporate structure is very real.

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:09 pm

awww *gives Spartan_Warrior a hug*

friends?

Chad
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Chad » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:55 am

Olaz wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:13 pm
I don't know where I stand on this issue anymore. It's getting to the point of prejudice. I have met a few people that treat me rudely when they see a white male working in finance. Curt statements, assumptions about privilege, talking behind my back. This is without me speaking a word. Then I say I'm a migrant, first generation Hispanic person increasing diversity in a traditionally white space. They're nicer to me after that.

I call bullshit. Ironically, it's making me want to distance myself from people who harbor this prejudice. Creating divisiveness indeed. I used to think a place like Portland, OR, was a dream. I'm not so sure now. I even met a person that would hold a sort-of "quiet hate" every time I debated or disagreed with them. I still hold many of my progressive leanings, but they have to come with care and kindness. Antifa and these anecdotes, for example, are not that.
I agree. I'm all for equality across the board, but that's not what some of the unequal people want. They hurt their own cause when they go too far.

I don't agree with the guy's overall theme in the letter. Though, if he hadn't been so ham handed there are a few minor points that are legit topics of discussion, such as making the environment more female friendly instead of artificially hiring more women. Of course, that is easier said than done, but it's not a terrible topic to discuss. It would make it more of a market than a top down driven program. Maybe a little of both would be better.

I don't like his firing, as it seems extreme for the act. A warning or even some form of punishment could be valid, but firing him seems over the top.

ffj
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by ffj » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:49 am

@Spartan

Silliness like this whole story is one of the reasons I checked out early from the workforce. What this kid doesn't realize is that Google is trying to uphold an image, whether real or not, and he's fucking it up. That's a big no-no and I chuckled when he seemed surprised that none of his co-workers wanted to discuss his thoughts on the matter before everything blew up. Can you imagine their reactions when they opened that tab on their computer? haha They probably couldn't close it fast enough lest their overseer note how many minutes they had spent on the document. The mortgage isn't going to pay itself.

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