Political correctness run amok

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jennypenny
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by jennypenny »

Dawkins is well-known (and loved) in academia. That's what surprised me about this. It's one thing for Berkeley to deny anyone considered a Trump supporter since they have taken an anti-fascism stance, but Dawkins is one of their own so to speak. His credentials should get him onto any college campus.

It's a weird day when I'm defending Dawkins but I am ... IMO it's a very bad sign that he's not being allowed to speak.

Dragline
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Dragline »

I think what happens at Berkeley stays at Berkeley. Maybe he can cop an invitation to Liberty U or Oral Roberts, though.

If you want to see what's really going on here, pull up left-wing media stories about Liberty and compare them with right-wing media stories about Berkeley. (You can substitute other college names in). Its the same story with different names and the same headline -- "Can you believe . . ." It's quite mimetic.

These stories actually have little to do with the vast majority of the students attending Liberty or Berkeley, who are just there to get ahead, and everything to do with pushing a story to an audience eager to confirm that the world is ending due to what is going on on some college campus that they have never been to.

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

probably true. but it seems that on both sides, the fringes have taken over a surprising number of institutions.

Dragline
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Dragline »

Yes, people are raising their children differently than they used to, so they demand different things from their institutions than people did in the past. And institutions change in response. It's a terrible, horrible thing. Probably the worst thing that ever happened.

Why don't we just cut this off at the source and monitor parenting more closely to make sure there is no politically correct wrong-thinking going on in American homes? Or maybe just issue licenses after requiring anyone who wants to have children to take a test to make sure they are not too "politically correct" (which means whatever you want anymore) in the minds of a self-selected review board?

Then we can rescue our beleaguered institutions from the fringey hordes that are taking them over. And restore them to their Golden Era Ivory Tower-ness of Yore. Just a modest proposal.

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

Dragline's modest proposal sounds like a ton of work. brute will instead enjoy the decline, and watch it all burn.

slowtraveler
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by slowtraveler »

I did not know that political correctness was a thing until South Park made a season about it. Halfway through I decided to Google "PC define" and realized some people care about this but I still haven't seen this much in real life.

Sounds like people attacking free speech through fear again...

Kriegsspiel
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Kriegsspiel »

BRUTE wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:18 pm
Dragline's modest proposal sounds like a ton of work. brute will instead enjoy the decline, and watch it all burn.
Buuurn, baby burn.

NPV
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by NPV »

Have I missed something or has this not been posted here yet?

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/08/excl ... at-google/

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@NPV: That poor little snowflake! I can only shudder at the thought of how tough his life must be as a straight white male Google engineer. Of course he shouldn't be "silenced and shamed" by our politically correct "shaming culture" just for using company resources to punch down at underpaid women and minority co-workers in a ten-page manifesto of weird 1950s-era pseudo-psychology and libertarian raving about "de-emphasizing empathy". It's downright unimaginable that such actions would have consequences in the workplace or anywhere else in this upstanding fellow's life! He's had it rough enough. I mean isn't hurting his feelings the real oppression?

ETA: Seriously, I can't get over this. Why would libertarians like himself be upset if he did get fired? Aren't Google's hiring--and firing--practices a "voluntary" arrangement? Why would he even complain about their discrimination policies to begin with? Shouldn't libertarians like him "respect authority"? (He claims so himself, somewhere around what would be page 4 I guess.) Especially the authority of a huge corporation, right? And aren't Google's policies literally "the free market's solution"?

Haha, this gift keeps giving. Thanks for sharing. Classic!

Dragline
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Dragline »

First rule about being a grunt-level at-will employee: Do not badmouth employer in widely disseminated screeds. Take it inside or take it to a lawyer if you suspect illegality.

Are you listening, Olaz? (Yes, I know your screed would be quite different if you had one.)

Riggerjack
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Riggerjack »

Yeah, that Google engineer seems a little confused about the science, but at least he is trying for a conversation about how to create a diversity friendly work environment.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/differen ... adam-grant

A social scientist takes his claims apart.

Followed by Scott Alexander demonstrating that there is no science in social science:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/co ... fferences/

Yes, we could do the "denial of sexism vs all inequality is proof of oppression" dance that the rest of the internet is doing, or we *could* look at the situation and try to interpret it as it is, rather than bending it to fit our worldview.

I think Scott has done a great job of the latter.

Riggerjack
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Riggerjack »

Shouldn't libertarians like him "respect authority"?
And this line, by itself, explains why I feel we are so often talking past each other. I would describe myself as fairly libertarian, but I don't define libertarian as someone who disagrees with Spartan warrior, as I'm starting to suspect that you do.

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C40
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by C40 »

It's very clear that Spartan's stance fits clearly on a certain sideline. Whether that's because he's on that team or he came up with them himself doesn't matter. A stance is not a problem.

What I do know for sure is that taking a less condescending tone would make that kind of post more convincing. (I'm talking about Spartan's most recent post in this threat). I can certainly be convinced to sway my opinion one way or another. A post like that, if anything, pushes me away from adopting Spartan's stance.

Tyler9000
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Tyler9000 »

I don't yet have a fully-formed opinion on the actual content of the offending Google letter, but this is one of the more thorough and thoughtful articles I've seen so far.

The Google Memo: Four Scientists Respond

https://web.archive.org/web/20170808013 ... s-respond/

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:04 am
Haha, this gift keeps giving. Thanks for sharing. Classic!
hahaha.

Trump.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@Riggerjack: I literally quoted the author on the first of his biases of the right, which is the side of the false dichotomy he presents with which he clearly agrees:

"Right Biases

Respect for the strong/authority"

So what's the issue? If this guy isn't a libertarian, then I'm Santa Claus. The problem isn't my definition, it's the fundamental contradiction of the ideology: libertarians secretly love authority, but only in the form of "strength" and capital. ETA: If it bothers you that much, just replace where I said "libertarian" with "right-winger" or "free-market capitalist" or whatever other label for essentially the same ideology you prefer.

@C40: I'm not trying to convince anyone to my point of view anymore. I don't care about this guy's hurt feelings or any hurt feelings of those who sympathize with his viewpoint.

I mean, to be honest, I do think it kind of sucks that he'll lose his job over one stupid mistake, even if it is a pretty obviously bad move to make in the fascist corporate environment. But that's exactly the outcome that right-to-work ideology and union-busting gets you. So it's kind of like, he buttered his bread, now he can lie in it, you know?

Besides, he said having empathy is a problem, right?

Smashter
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Location: Midwest USA

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Smashter »

For those without the inclination to read the entire Slate Star Codex link Riggerjack linked to, I thought this was the salient part:

"In the year 1850, women were locked out of almost every major field, with a few exceptions like nursing and teaching. The average man of the day would have been equally confident that women were unfit for law, unfit for medicine, unfit for mathematics, unfit for linguistics, unfit for engineering, unfit for journalism, unfit for psychology, and unfit for biology. He would have had various sexist justifications – women shouldn’t be in law because it’s too competitive and high-pressure; women shouldn’t be in medicine because they’re fragile and will faint at the sight of blood; et cetera.

As the feminist movement gradually took hold, women conquered one of these fields after another. 51% of law students are now female. So are 49.8% of medical students, 45% of math majors, 60% of linguistics majors, 60% of journalism majors, 75% of psychology majors, and 60% of biology postdocs. Yet for some reason, engineering remains only about 20% female.

And everyone says “Aha! I bet it’s because of negative stereotypes!”

This makes no sense."

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

Slate Star Codex article is very good. brute's favorite part:
It doesn’t have to be this way. Nobody has any real policy disagreements. Everyone can just agree that men and women are equal, that they both have the same rights, that nobody should face harassment or discrimination. We can relax the Permanent State Of Emergency around too few women in tech, and admit that women have the right to go into whatever field they want, and that if they want to go off and be 80% of veterinarians and 74% of forensic scientists, those careers seem good too. We can appreciate the contributions of existing women in tech, make sure the door is open for any new ones who want to join, and start treating each other as human beings again. Your co-worker could just be your co-worker, not a potential Nazi to be assaulted or a potential Stalinist who’s going to rat on you. Your project manager could just be your project manager, not the person tasked with monitoring you for signs of thoughtcrime. Your female co-worker could just be your female co-worker, not a Badass Grrl Coder Who Overcomes Adversity. Your male co-worker could just be your male co-worker, not a Tool Of The Patriarchy Who Denies His Complicity In Oppression. I promise there are industries like this. Medicine is like this! Loads of things are like this! Lots of tech companies are even still like this! This could be you.

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:08 pm
If it bothers you that much, just replace where I said "libertarian" with "right-winger" or "free-market capitalist" or whatever other label for essentially the same ideology you prefer.
Libertarianism isn't "right", and is very different from Conservatism ("authority" types) or whatever. false dichotomy between Marxism and everything else much?

Riggerjack
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Riggerjack »

Yeah. I linked to it, not just because he does a great job of breaking down the assumptions that lead to conflict in this area, but because he takes a subject of contention, and turns it into something only fringe nut jobs could continue to argue about.

That is a rare ability, that I clearly don't have. But I'll link to it when I find it.

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