Political correctness run amok

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Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

That interview sure seemed like a lot of, "At least I proved I was right all along!"

Yeah, amazing. You'd think this staggering intellect might have heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Again, who would have ever thought that making weird political manifestos, alienating half your coworkers, creating a PR disaster AND accusing your bosses of vague illegal practices without evidence, might possibly lead to dismissal?

After looking into the background of the interviewer, Jordan B Peterson, I'm not surprised they're so into each other. Evidently Peterson was disciplined by his university over a similar screed against trans pronouns. Seems he now makes his name as some kind of crusader against the "Political Correctness" bogeyman. It's nice when you can turn your passion into a living.

Likewise, Damore seems pretty interested in leveraging his own self-fulfilling prophecy of martyrdom to further this narrative of white racial oppression. Obviously there's a market for it. He should hope that works out for him, since I kinda doubt he'll find a similar position in tech, especially now that he's suing. Better brush up on that amateur Youtube production.

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C40
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by C40 »

Olaz wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:13 pm
I used to think a place like Portland, OR, was a dream. I'm not so sure now.
Portland can be a mess. One of the problems now is that many of the "natives" (people who were born there) are super pissed off about how all the outsiders moved to their city and caused their rent to go up. And believe me, they'll tell you all about it. (Meanwhile, all my family who live in Denver - another city where real estate has gone crazy - are selling their houses and deciding what to do with the windfalls)

I grew up mostly in a conservative state in the midwest. For 8 years (University and then some career work) I lived in a medium sized city in that state. People there were generally conservative and I didn't like a few parts of that (one of the big ones being that they, basically, were not sex positive). Something that was an oddity to me at the time was that this city supposedly had the highest per capita population of gay people second maybe only to San Francisco. (Something I haven't ever seen actual data for). Of course, gays are a group often treated poorly by conservatives. Why were there a lot of gays there? Why weren't the gays leaving? I didn't know. I learned later...

From there I moved to Madison, Wisconsin. I'd been there before on a work trip and had fun hanging out downtown, going out at night, and meeting women (I was there for an incredibly easy week of training, and I'd take a nap each evening and go out each night. Yeah, that was a lot of years ago now). Anyways, I thought I was more of a liberal than a conservative. I mean, they were more sex positive, more open-minded and more accepting of people. Right?

There were some cool things about Madison. But also some very very annoying things. The best example was when one of my bike racing buddies/team mates was featured in the University of Wisconsin newspaper. He was a student there and had won the lottery and bought tickets to the Rosebowl (a big football game). The university reminded people right at that time to make it perfectly clear that it was ok for students to sell these football tickets. This news article that my friend was featured in had the headline "These are the worst people in Madison". The article contained a list of 10-20 people who had posted their Rosebowl tickets for sale on Facebook marketplace. It went on and on about how these are horrible people, how they're ruining things for all the other students who like football, and even had a call to action asking the readers to harass them. My friend was a senior at the time, and was looking for jobs and applying to grad schools. When you googled "[his name] Madison" or something similar, the top result was that article - with the page headline "These are the worst people in Madison" and his name in bold in that block of text below.

Being in Madison showed me what was the best thing about people in that conservative city where I used to live - something I never realized while I was there - and why gay folks - the group possibly most often mistreated by conservatives - stayed there and seemed very comfortable. In that city, even if people had personal views against (or uncomfortable with or fearful of) what you were doing, they most all had a "live and let live" stance. Many of the gays I knew there were completely out and open about themselves because it was actually a very safe place to do so. Those conservatives who might have felt that being gay was wrong or gross still were willing and able to treat each one of them as an individual, to respect them, and to be nice to them. Kind of like - if I think you suck at parking, I can still understand that you are a good person. In Madison, though, if you don't adhere to what a surprisingly large percentage of what those folks think, they might lump you into that "worst people in the city" group really fucking quick.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@FFJ:
"So again, why was he fired? This?"

Yeah, that. Or... nothing? It's a right-to-work state. Why do they even need a reason?

"Do we know he alienated half on his co-workers?"

I suppose not. We know only that he alienated some of them. This article contains a few of their (Twitter) reactions: https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/5/16101 ... -manifesto

I agree that he's very naive.

Can I just say for the record, in case I gave the wrong impression, I don't necessarily agree with Google firing him outright over this (in fact I think I said so earlier); I merely saw it as immediately inevitable. Nor do I necessarily believe strongly in liberal affirmative action programs. (Although I am still curious how programs tailored to women are so discriminatory. If his entire argument revolves around women having different thinking and learning styles, why not have their own programs? It doesn't even require social science or political philosophy, it's common sense.)

My entire take is merely schadenfreude at the ironies of a right-winger experiencing the end result of his own ideology: ownership by the wealthy of their workers to the very level of their thoughts in a paranoid authoritarian setting void of any semblance of democracy, where he who has the gold makes the rules, and cuts off the gold at his own whim if you piss him off.

"Political correctness" is a spook, but the alienation of corporate structure is very real.

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

awww *gives Spartan_Warrior a hug*

friends?

Chad
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Chad »

Olaz wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:13 pm
I don't know where I stand on this issue anymore. It's getting to the point of prejudice. I have met a few people that treat me rudely when they see a white male working in finance. Curt statements, assumptions about privilege, talking behind my back. This is without me speaking a word. Then I say I'm a migrant, first generation Hispanic person increasing diversity in a traditionally white space. They're nicer to me after that.

I call bullshit. Ironically, it's making me want to distance myself from people who harbor this prejudice. Creating divisiveness indeed. I used to think a place like Portland, OR, was a dream. I'm not so sure now. I even met a person that would hold a sort-of "quiet hate" every time I debated or disagreed with them. I still hold many of my progressive leanings, but they have to come with care and kindness. Antifa and these anecdotes, for example, are not that.
I agree. I'm all for equality across the board, but that's not what some of the unequal people want. They hurt their own cause when they go too far.

I don't agree with the guy's overall theme in the letter. Though, if he hadn't been so ham handed there are a few minor points that are legit topics of discussion, such as making the environment more female friendly instead of artificially hiring more women. Of course, that is easier said than done, but it's not a terrible topic to discuss. It would make it more of a market than a top down driven program. Maybe a little of both would be better.

I don't like his firing, as it seems extreme for the act. A warning or even some form of punishment could be valid, but firing him seems over the top.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

BTW, the fact that they did fire him outright kinda confirms my suspicion that there is NOT much merit to his claims of "illegal" practices, or at least that Google thinks they can handle them with ease. If there were any merit to his accusations I feel like they might have kept him closer and tried to play ball, if only because firing him is basically daring him to take his claims to a lawyer, which of course it sounds like he has. So, could be wrong, but my impression is that Google thinks it has nothing to fear from that.

Indeed, my brief research indicates that most forms of affirmative action would likely be legal in a private workplace as long as it meets some rather thin legal requirements to justify it.

All the more indication the rant came at least as much from a place of immaturity and a politically-fostered white male persecution complex as it did from any actual practice of Google.

@FFJ: LOL, agreed. Exactly right, Google execs don't actually give a shit about any of this either way--the man's rights or the women's--they just care about the company maintaining a "progressive" image so as to continue to compete for talent in that demographic. (I imagine this is also why they have a freaking "internal meme forum"...) If it were a "conservative" image and corporate culture and you spoke out about that similarly I'd expect an identical result. At the end of the day it's basically just a case of play stupid corporate games, win stupid corporate prizes.

Riggerjack
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Riggerjack »

@c40

I agree. The most live and let live place I have ever lived was Fairbanks Alaska.

And Portland is even worse for the in and out clannish behavior than Seattle. I have some nice memories of the times in Eugene Oregon, though. I think a hard core left minority in a moderate majority works well. When either fringe gets to be big enough, they just make the overall quality of life drop, though.

This is why I'm so blown away by the folks who want to go back to college towns in the ERE city thread. Small town with one industry that imports a fresh crop of clueless people every year? No thanks.

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TheWanderingScholar
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by TheWanderingScholar »

To jump in on the live and let live personality of Alaska:

That overall personality combined with a level-headed political influence than it much higher than the 48 mainland is one of the main reason is that if I were to live in America, that place would be one of them. The main downside is it is expensive as heck all (can we cuss using the F-word? I forgot.) and there are too few people.

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

fuck

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TheWanderingScholar
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by TheWanderingScholar »

BRUTE wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:55 pm
fuck
Fucking fair enough then. :)

TopHatFox
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by TopHatFox »

What are you fuckers talking about! :P

Kriegsspiel
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Kriegsspiel »

Olaz wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:27 pm
What are you fuckers talking about! :P
Fucking women in tech.

Not to be confused with fucking women in tech.

distracted_at_work
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by distracted_at_work »

Hello all. Didn't want to start a thread but I'd like some thoughts.

Two weeks ago I was drinking with a good friend and she angrily called me out for referring to Native Americans (Indians, Aboriginals, Indigenous etc) as "Natives" during conversation as I learned to do in school. She was quite incensed that we all must say Indigenous because any other word is offensive (I think the word was Aboriginals a few years ago but I can't say that either now). I argued that these folks on reserves are committing suicide in droves and rarely have access to clean drinking water, among other problems, who gives a flying fuck what label they have. She then threw in my face that as a privileged white male I can't offer an opinion ?!?!?!?!?!?!?! This then quickly turned into a shouting match as I, not calmly, tried to explain to her that being a white female born in Canada, this makes you pretty damn privileged and that all "privilege" is relative anyway. She disagreed. In the end, we made up in the interest of carrying on enjoying ourselves. However, looking back I'm still very enraged by this conversation.

Is throwing a "you are this you may not have an opinion on this" not a ridiculous thing to say to someone? How do I explain that I can't help how I was born? Or am I being the unreasonable person here? Neither of us are Native American so it seems like an insane thing to argue about.

This friend and I have always had civil disagreements but this may have crossed a line for me.

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

welcome to the basics of identity politics. only the victims have a right to an opinion. any arguments or facts to the contrary, especially by privileged individuals, are an affront to the lived experience and identity of the victim, and therefore impermissible.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Everybody knows that the human who stands up and hits the tree with the big stick to knock down the fruit ends up getting higher hourly wage than the humans who squats down and bends over with baby on back to gather the fruits into her apron. Duh. Downside is so much competition for the big stick job that some of those humans have to hit each other over the head with the big sticks to determine who should get the position. (citation: Pierre Bourdieu, "Masculine Domination")

IOW, if it came down to a determination that ability to pee while standing up was the only inherent difference between males and females, besides greater tendency towards aggression, the greater tendency towards aggression would result in competitive peeing being a prerequisite for higher wage. However, I don't much care because I would still be able to get a decent paying job calculating piss contest odds and/or some sort of domestic contract with somebody more likely to win a pissing contest.

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C40
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by C40 »

distracted_at_work wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:38 am
Hello all. Didn't want to start a thread but I'd like some thoughts.

Two weeks ago I was drinking with a good friend and she angrily called me out for referring to Native Americans (Indians, Aboriginals, Indigenous etc) as "Natives" during conversation as I learned to do in school. She was quite incensed that we all must say Indigenous because any other word is offensive......
Your friend was not only being a jerk to you. She is also wrong.

There is not one single specific term that we're supposed to use for Native Americans, and because they are made up of so many different tribes and cultures and they have assimilated and also developed separately, there probably won't ever be.

A large number of Native Americans have shared that they prefer being called Indians, or American Indians. Often, their top preference is to be called by their "tribe" name - like Lakota, for example. (being called Lakotas, or Lakota people, fore example - and it is even trickier because often they prefer the tribe names very in complicated ways, and these names are in their own languages, and so on. And of course that doesn't work when talking about all of the Native Americans as a whole).

Here's an example, with specific input and reasons from four different American Indians: https://indiancountrymedianetwork.com/c ... s-respond/

There are some terms that you shouldn't use, like redskins or savages, or chief. Those kind of terms are, more or less, the Native American version of "niggers", "beaners", or "wet backs". (and I don't believe Natives use these terms themselves). If I understand correctly, this is why there's much more controversy over the Washington Redksins than the Cleveland Indians or the Florida State Seminoles.

When it comes to the other more normal terms like Natives, Native American, Indians, American Indians, ect. those can sometimes be kind of the term "Mexican". They are normal and acceptable, and also they could possibly take on an offensive slant if used in an offensive tone. If someone says, for example "God, what's with these dirty fucking Indians around here?" you're getting into offensive territory.

distracted_at_work
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by distracted_at_work »

C40 wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:55 pm
They are normal and acceptable, and also they could possibly take on an offensive slant if used in an offensive tone. If someone says, for example "God, what's with these dirty fucking Indians around here?" you're getting into offensive territory.
I should have mentioned in my original post that the context was something like "I've worked with Native bands in the past". That is, not intended to be offensive in tone or message. Thanks for the link, very interesting. I may share it with my friend.

TopHatFox
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by TopHatFox »

I use First Nations People, Native People, or the tribe name. Native American or Indians is a bit of a twist name. Think about it. It's essentially colonists calling native people by the name they gave to the claimed territory. Either that, or the name of a country and people in Asia.

I agree, there are more important issues to solve than the name. It's only a start.

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C40
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by C40 »

It's tricky because nearly all of the common names are not accurate.

"Natives" is not accurate because everyone born in the U.S. is native.

"Indians" is obviously not accurate, though now, because word meanings do change, it includes both "red dot Indians" and "feather Indians"

"Indigenous" (meaning "originating or occurring naturally in a particular place; native.") is odd and only partly accurate, because what does "occurring naturally" mean in this case?...)

There's really not any name to accurately describe "descendants of people who walked over here on a land bridge about 15,000 years ago".

"Aboriginal" is spot on, but it is not used much to refer to American Indians. Google defines it as "(of human races, animals, and plants) inhabiting or existing in a land from the earliest times or from before the arrival of colonists"). If I hear "Aboriginal", I assume people are talking about Aboriginals in Australia.

Maybe the most technically correct term would be "Aboriginal people of the northwestern hemisphere", but nobody's using that. And anyways, the people living now are the descendants of those people. Many 'Aboriginal people of the northwestern hemisphere' just consider themselves "Americans".

So anyways, there just isn't one name that is both entirely recognizable and never offensive. You just can't win here. The good thing is that Indians understand this, are mostly all level-headed about it, and they aren't going to freak out on you about it.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

You could show her the article and continue the discussion if you can do so tactfully, and/or just get over this injustice to your feelings and need to be right, accept that you both have good intentions at heart and it will likely never come up again, and proceed with your relationship like normal.

That said, it is a ridiculous thing to get hung-up on in context, and exactly the kind of liberal bullshit that gives the political correctness bogeyman any legs at all.

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