Political correctness run amok

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C40
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by C40 »

distracted_at_work wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:38 am
Hello all. Didn't want to start a thread but I'd like some thoughts.

Two weeks ago I was drinking with a good friend and she angrily called me out for referring to Native Americans (Indians, Aboriginals, Indigenous etc) as "Natives" during conversation as I learned to do in school. She was quite incensed that we all must say Indigenous because any other word is offensive......
Your friend was not only being a jerk to you. She is also wrong.

There is not one single specific term that we're supposed to use for Native Americans, and because they are made up of so many different tribes and cultures and they have assimilated and also developed separately, there probably won't ever be.

A large number of Native Americans have shared that they prefer being called Indians, or American Indians. Often, their top preference is to be called by their "tribe" name - like Lakota, for example. (being called Lakotas, or Lakota people, fore example - and it is even trickier because often they prefer the tribe names very in complicated ways, and these names are in their own languages, and so on. And of course that doesn't work when talking about all of the Native Americans as a whole).

Here's an example, with specific input and reasons from four different American Indians: https://indiancountrymedianetwork.com/c ... s-respond/

There are some terms that you shouldn't use, like redskins or savages, or chief. Those kind of terms are, more or less, the Native American version of "niggers", "beaners", or "wet backs". (and I don't believe Natives use these terms themselves). If I understand correctly, this is why there's much more controversy over the Washington Redksins than the Cleveland Indians or the Florida State Seminoles.

When it comes to the other more normal terms like Natives, Native American, Indians, American Indians, ect. those can sometimes be kind of the term "Mexican". They are normal and acceptable, and also they could possibly take on an offensive slant if used in an offensive tone. If someone says, for example "God, what's with these dirty fucking Indians around here?" you're getting into offensive territory.

distracted_at_work
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by distracted_at_work »

C40 wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:55 pm
They are normal and acceptable, and also they could possibly take on an offensive slant if used in an offensive tone. If someone says, for example "God, what's with these dirty fucking Indians around here?" you're getting into offensive territory.
I should have mentioned in my original post that the context was something like "I've worked with Native bands in the past". That is, not intended to be offensive in tone or message. Thanks for the link, very interesting. I may share it with my friend.

TopHatFox
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by TopHatFox »

I use First Nations People, Native People, or the tribe name. Native American or Indians is a bit of a twist name. Think about it. It's essentially colonists calling native people by the name they gave to the claimed territory. Either that, or the name of a country and people in Asia.

I agree, there are more important issues to solve than the name. It's only a start.

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C40
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by C40 »

It's tricky because nearly all of the common names are not accurate.

"Natives" is not accurate because everyone born in the U.S. is native.

"Indians" is obviously not accurate, though now, because word meanings do change, it includes both "red dot Indians" and "feather Indians"

"Indigenous" (meaning "originating or occurring naturally in a particular place; native.") is odd and only partly accurate, because what does "occurring naturally" mean in this case?...)

There's really not any name to accurately describe "descendants of people who walked over here on a land bridge about 15,000 years ago".

"Aboriginal" is spot on, but it is not used much to refer to American Indians. Google defines it as "(of human races, animals, and plants) inhabiting or existing in a land from the earliest times or from before the arrival of colonists"). If I hear "Aboriginal", I assume people are talking about Aboriginals in Australia.

Maybe the most technically correct term would be "Aboriginal people of the northwestern hemisphere", but nobody's using that. And anyways, the people living now are the descendants of those people. Many 'Aboriginal people of the northwestern hemisphere' just consider themselves "Americans".

So anyways, there just isn't one name that is both entirely recognizable and never offensive. You just can't win here. The good thing is that Indians understand this, are mostly all level-headed about it, and they aren't going to freak out on you about it.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

You could show her the article and continue the discussion if you can do so tactfully, and/or just get over this injustice to your feelings and need to be right, accept that you both have good intentions at heart and it will likely never come up again, and proceed with your relationship like normal.

That said, it is a ridiculous thing to get hung-up on in context, and exactly the kind of liberal bullshit that gives the political correctness bogeyman any legs at all.

bryan
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by bryan »

@Spartan_Warrior, unfortunately it's instances like those that stand out and everyone latches onto. They seem common enough? Some issues e.g. "cultural appropriation" are definitely common and also seem like bullshit, to me (i.e. Oh really? I'm not allowed to enjoy certain things without feeling the appropriate levels of guilt? Or something?).

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@Bryan:

Agreed, I expect this is very representative of the average incident of "political correctness", with similarly representative stakes: hurt feelings.

bryan
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by bryan »

What do you mean hurt feelings? That it's the only effect of "political correctness run amok"?

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:19 am
Agreed, I expect this is very representative of the average incident of "political correctness", with similarly representative stakes: hurt feelings.
hurt feelings that drive reasonable humans from the center away from PC and towards alt-right. it's incredible how many of brute's basically liberal friends have started consuming pepe memes and Breitbart, after the PC zealots had driven them off with identity politics.

because they are sexist and racist, the PC warriors seem to believe it's OK to insult whites and males, like Spartan_Warrior does above ("all they have to show for is hurt feelings"). that whites and males make up 34-40% of the country, and they're driving them right into the arms of whoever is not PC, and that the alt-right uses this to legitimize their own racism, doesn't seem to bother the PC nazis as long as they get to feel righteous.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@Brute:

"PC nazis"

Wew. We get it, if you're against fascism you're the real fascist.

It's funny how you provide a living example of what I'm talking about, and from your perspective of imaginary persecution, I provide an example of yours, by pointing out your imaginary persecution.

@Bryan:

Almost universally, barring outlier events, yeah.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

BRUTE is correct in stating that hurt feelings are important. I don't think Hitler was made happy by his art school failure. Stefan Zweig's "Beware of Pity" is my novel recommendation. Everybody needs to stop watching the news, stop thinking in terms of statistics, and start reading some novels written in previous eras by other intelligent humans. Complex human social patterns can't be explained with simple models. Stating that somebody is "like a Nazi" is like stating that a torus is like a donut, with "mean or aggressive towards other humans" being the hole.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@7Wannabe5: I'm sure Hitler was quite unhappy about many things, including his own loserdom, which drove him to find a scapegoat for the loserdom of himself and everyone else in economically cratered Germany. He found that scapegoat in imaginary Jewish persecution.

I don't dispute that our new Nazis are unhappy. I don't dispute that they're losers. I don't dispute that they feel a sense of imaginary persecution. I simply contend that this sense of persecution is, in fact, imaginary.

Like I said, it's funny how closely Brute and I seem to agree, only to miss that crucial point, which takes us in opposite directions.

What bothers me as a "PC Nazi" is that it doesn't seem to matter to the real Nazis that their persecution is fake. Yet that persecution is the keystone that justifies their entire ideology.

And how do you shake them out of it when pointing out the falseness of the persecution is seen as more persecution? It's not that this doesn't concern me "as long as I get to feel righteous". It's more that I don't really know any other way to change minds except to point out fallacious thinking. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for us "PC Nazis" who are still desperately trying to dissuade the real Nazis with reasoning. Ironically, Brute says this just drives them deeper into their ideology. If this is the result of peaceful reasoning, no wonder many are ready to abandon peaceful methods altogether.

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C40
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by C40 »

(eh, I'm not sure this adds anything, so I'm clearing it out)

7Wannabe5
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Spartan_Warrior wrote: I simply contend that this sense of persecution is, in fact, imaginary.
Well, persecution is certainly not the right word, but something is going on. It's important to remember that novel properties emerge at greater levels of systemic complexity. The whole is more than the sum of the parts. For instance, a patriarchy is more than a collection of patriarchs.

Bit of an over-simplification, but I would say that much of the frustration (or sense of persecution) is due to finding themselves in a position of "responsibility without authority." A conservative black man (claimed to like the character of Archie Bunker because he laid it on the line) I used to date, once told me that successful black men want to marry white women, because the black women were already married to white men. Those white men being Uncle Sam and White Jesus. IOW, the charity and social support available through religious affiliation and the financial support available through government enforced welfare and affirmative action (black females being favored as tokens over black men because less threatening) had subverted the ability of black men to achieve or maintain moral or practical authority as heads of their households. He also raised both of his sons from different mothers (one black, one white) whom he never married as a single father, spending around $50,000 in battle to obtain custody of one of them. IOW, he was as rigid and vigilant as Harry Browne in not taking responsibility where he could not exert authority, and thereby maintaining his freedom, but he chose the route of more authority, rather than less responsibility, in relationship to his children.

Jacob and I once shared a humorous exchange on the topic of whether I should take personal responsibility for doing enough push-ups so that I could pull myself up on to a rooftop with my own strength in an emergency situation vs. my suggestion of primitive strategy of trading ass for upper-body strength with a male partner. My Iranian-American ex was very concerned that we might on some occasion be violently assaulted by an individual who did not like seeing a white woman with a green man. So, he taught me some self-defense skills, but his number one thing was that I had to immediately follow his instructions in such a situation. IOW, he wanted to take on more of the responsibility for our safety in such a situation, but I had to grant him the authority.

What strikes me is the similarity of the complaints or frustrations I hear, or the stresses I simply witness, in the young alt-right swinging men and the older, often recently divorced, men that I date. Simplistic way of explaining it would be slow bleed at the juncture of chivalry and feminism.

The Old Man
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by The Old Man »

https://youtu.be/gwSYhTWk6E8

Weimar Germany in America!
Frankly, this has to be the best video I have come across that describes the forces at work. It strongly supports Brute's assertion that the rise of the alt-right is a direct result of the actions of the extreme left.

distracted_at_work
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by distracted_at_work »

(God help me for continuing in this discussion but.. )

Is there not serious hypocrisy in silencing someone based on class, ethnicity or gender? But then turning around and saying X person has the appropriate mix, let's hear what they have to say? Then turning around and saying one is pro-equality? That's what pisses me off. Equality should be for everyone, no one should be more equal than others.

@Spartan. I'm mad someone, who I previously thought was reasonable, told me to shut up because of my skin color and gender. This was especially confusing to me as she shares that lack of pigment. Ultimately our goals are the same, to be respectful of others. Identity politics created a divide where there should be none. It is absolute vile garbage.

If that's hurt feelings in your mind so be it. I'm hurt that this bullshit is invading the minds my friends.
Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:37 am
I don't dispute that they feel a sense of imaginary persecution. I simply contend that this sense of persecution is, in fact, imaginary.
It doesn't matter if the persecution is imaginary or not ...
General Snoopy wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:06 am
It strongly supports Brute's assertion that the rise of the alt-right is a direct result of the actions of the extreme left.
I would strongly agree with this.

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:24 am
Bit of an over-simplification, but I would say that much of the frustration (or sense of persecution) is due to finding themselves in a position of "responsibility without authority."
wow, this is a great way of thinking about the issue. tbh, brute hadn't really thought about the whole "hurt feelings of whites" dynamic much because, well, for him it's really just hurt feelings. brute's doing fine.

the cultural norm is to pick on white men, make fun of them, because after all, "they can take it because they're the CEOs, presidents, etc". and to blame all of society's ills on them (racism, sexism), because "they're in power".

if someone like Rex Tillerson or Mitt Romney complained about this, it would really be over hurt feelings. both are doing fine. they have authority, so they can take responsibility.

but many white men are (for whatever other reasons) at the bottom of the food chain in this country. they have absolutely no authority, they didn't cause anything, and they couldn't fix anything. they are probably painfully aware of this.

now when the SJWs yell and blanket-blame all white men and demand for them to fix it, this group likely feels a very intense responsibility/authority mismatch. this could drive them to seek refuge in "white identity".

for reference, brute feels the same way when Bill Maher or Sam Harris demand that moderate muslims are in part responsible for the actions of violent extreme muslims. if brute were a muslim, he'd laugh at this. there are 1.5 billion muslims in the world. expecting a random member of this group to take responsibility for others in the group is ridiculous, just as it is ridiculous to blame modern whites for black slavery 150 years ago, or to ask white humans to take responsibility for white supremacists. no, not all humans who have been stuffed in the same category by someone are therefore responsible for each other or have authority over each other.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

BRUTE wrote:the cultural norm is to pick on white men, make fun of them, because after all, "they can take it because they're the CEOs, presidents, etc". and to blame all of society's ills on them (racism, sexism), because "they're in power".

if someone like Rex Tillerson or Mitt Romney complained about this, it would really be over hurt feelings. both are doing fine. they have authority, so they can take responsibility.
You might be surprised how far up the food chain this imbalance of responsibility vs. authority goes. I keep noticing how relatively free I am, with my tiny little lifestyle, compared to many of the very conventionally successful, climbed the ladder, did all or most of the right things, men I date. It's not like they are drowning in debt, or anything like that either, more like totally weighed down with responsibilities and expectations, and not likely to be receiving much, if any, respect or appreciation in exchange. I'm kind of surprised that more of them don't just say "Fuck this noise", and then run off to Tahiti to paint teenage girls. I feel sorry for the grouchy old things.

I'm an advocate of reduced work week for everyone, but what does everybody who envies or points to the power held by old white men think would happen if they all just quit their jobs or abdicated their positions tomorrow?

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GandK
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by GandK »

@7w5 I'm not convinced there's any thinking going on.

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

who is john galt?^^

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