Political correctness run amok

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Riggerjack
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Riggerjack »

Yeah, that Google engineer seems a little confused about the science, but at least he is trying for a conversation about how to create a diversity friendly work environment.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/differen ... adam-grant

A social scientist takes his claims apart.

Followed by Scott Alexander demonstrating that there is no science in social science:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/co ... fferences/

Yes, we could do the "denial of sexism vs all inequality is proof of oppression" dance that the rest of the internet is doing, or we *could* look at the situation and try to interpret it as it is, rather than bending it to fit our worldview.

I think Scott has done a great job of the latter.

Riggerjack
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Riggerjack »

Shouldn't libertarians like him "respect authority"?
And this line, by itself, explains why I feel we are so often talking past each other. I would describe myself as fairly libertarian, but I don't define libertarian as someone who disagrees with Spartan warrior, as I'm starting to suspect that you do.

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C40
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by C40 »

It's very clear that Spartan's stance fits clearly on a certain sideline. Whether that's because he's on that team or he came up with them himself doesn't matter. A stance is not a problem.

What I do know for sure is that taking a less condescending tone would make that kind of post more convincing. (I'm talking about Spartan's most recent post in this threat). I can certainly be convinced to sway my opinion one way or another. A post like that, if anything, pushes me away from adopting Spartan's stance.

Tyler9000
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Tyler9000 »

I don't yet have a fully-formed opinion on the actual content of the offending Google letter, but this is one of the more thorough and thoughtful articles I've seen so far.

The Google Memo: Four Scientists Respond

https://web.archive.org/web/20170808013 ... s-respond/

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:04 am
Haha, this gift keeps giving. Thanks for sharing. Classic!
hahaha.

Trump.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@Riggerjack: I literally quoted the author on the first of his biases of the right, which is the side of the false dichotomy he presents with which he clearly agrees:

"Right Biases

Respect for the strong/authority"

So what's the issue? If this guy isn't a libertarian, then I'm Santa Claus. The problem isn't my definition, it's the fundamental contradiction of the ideology: libertarians secretly love authority, but only in the form of "strength" and capital. ETA: If it bothers you that much, just replace where I said "libertarian" with "right-winger" or "free-market capitalist" or whatever other label for essentially the same ideology you prefer.

@C40: I'm not trying to convince anyone to my point of view anymore. I don't care about this guy's hurt feelings or any hurt feelings of those who sympathize with his viewpoint.

I mean, to be honest, I do think it kind of sucks that he'll lose his job over one stupid mistake, even if it is a pretty obviously bad move to make in the fascist corporate environment. But that's exactly the outcome that right-to-work ideology and union-busting gets you. So it's kind of like, he buttered his bread, now he can lie in it, you know?

Besides, he said having empathy is a problem, right?

Smashter
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Location: Midwest USA

Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Smashter »

For those without the inclination to read the entire Slate Star Codex link Riggerjack linked to, I thought this was the salient part:

"In the year 1850, women were locked out of almost every major field, with a few exceptions like nursing and teaching. The average man of the day would have been equally confident that women were unfit for law, unfit for medicine, unfit for mathematics, unfit for linguistics, unfit for engineering, unfit for journalism, unfit for psychology, and unfit for biology. He would have had various sexist justifications – women shouldn’t be in law because it’s too competitive and high-pressure; women shouldn’t be in medicine because they’re fragile and will faint at the sight of blood; et cetera.

As the feminist movement gradually took hold, women conquered one of these fields after another. 51% of law students are now female. So are 49.8% of medical students, 45% of math majors, 60% of linguistics majors, 60% of journalism majors, 75% of psychology majors, and 60% of biology postdocs. Yet for some reason, engineering remains only about 20% female.

And everyone says “Aha! I bet it’s because of negative stereotypes!”

This makes no sense."

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

Slate Star Codex article is very good. brute's favorite part:
It doesn’t have to be this way. Nobody has any real policy disagreements. Everyone can just agree that men and women are equal, that they both have the same rights, that nobody should face harassment or discrimination. We can relax the Permanent State Of Emergency around too few women in tech, and admit that women have the right to go into whatever field they want, and that if they want to go off and be 80% of veterinarians and 74% of forensic scientists, those careers seem good too. We can appreciate the contributions of existing women in tech, make sure the door is open for any new ones who want to join, and start treating each other as human beings again. Your co-worker could just be your co-worker, not a potential Nazi to be assaulted or a potential Stalinist who’s going to rat on you. Your project manager could just be your project manager, not the person tasked with monitoring you for signs of thoughtcrime. Your female co-worker could just be your female co-worker, not a Badass Grrl Coder Who Overcomes Adversity. Your male co-worker could just be your male co-worker, not a Tool Of The Patriarchy Who Denies His Complicity In Oppression. I promise there are industries like this. Medicine is like this! Loads of things are like this! Lots of tech companies are even still like this! This could be you.

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:08 pm
If it bothers you that much, just replace where I said "libertarian" with "right-winger" or "free-market capitalist" or whatever other label for essentially the same ideology you prefer.
Libertarianism isn't "right", and is very different from Conservatism ("authority" types) or whatever. false dichotomy between Marxism and everything else much?

Riggerjack
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Riggerjack »

Yeah. I linked to it, not just because he does a great job of breaking down the assumptions that lead to conflict in this area, but because he takes a subject of contention, and turns it into something only fringe nut jobs could continue to argue about.

That is a rare ability, that I clearly don't have. But I'll link to it when I find it.

Riggerjack
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Riggerjack »

Spartan_Warrior wrote: ↑If it bothers you that much, just replace where I said "libertarian" with "right-winger" or "free-market capitalist" or whatever other label for essentially the same ideology you prefer.
Libertarianism isn't "right", and is very different from Conservatism ("authority" types) or whatever. false dichotomy between Marxism and everything else much?
I was trying to make that point. When someone says "libertarian", I think of libertarian, a specific set of values. As near as I can tell, when SW uses libertarian, he means all the people who don't share his values.

Thus I expect there are right wing libertarians, nazi libertarians, Hindu libertarians, flat earth libertarians, perhaps even commie libertarians... :roll:

Dragline
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Dragline »

I think that author meant 1950, as that would have been the accurate date. Or he is just sloppy. More likely the latter, as comparing veterinarians to computer programmers is apples/oranges given the comparative amount of schooling and expense it takes to become a vet (lots and its harder to get into than medical school) and computer programmers (not much -- maybe not even a B.S.).

I didn't bother to look for other basic errors in that slop-fest. But in general, trying to glean an overall understanding of something by looking at it as a snapshot at one time is a fool's errand.

As a factual matter, certain engineering fields have been the last bastion of this kind of thinking. My alma mater (Caltech) did not admit women at all until 1970, there were about 18% in the 80s when I attended and its just getting closer to 50% now. Law schools and med schools went from less than 10% female in the 1970s to around equal numbers in the late 80s and early 90s. My son reports that most of the engineering disciplines are around 50% female at his school today, with the exception of electrical engineering.

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

unfortunately, Dragline is misinformed. female humans actually made up a larger percentage of programmers in the 1950s, much larger than today. this is mentioned in the article as well. hordes of female programmers broke the Nazi crypto code in WW2.

the rate of human females in programming has gone DOWN over time. as is demonstrated and explained in the article.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

Like I said, if this guy wouldn't describe himself as a libertarian, I'm Santa Claus. Besides which, in the domains he seems to be discussing, with regard to the women's pay gap, frankly the ideas of "libertarians" and pretty much every other "right-wing" ideology certainly do seem to align in my experience.

I can see there being "libertarian commies" actually, but the term "libertarian" is pretty synonymous with "right-libertarianism" of the Feel the Johnson variety these days. Basically Koch-sanctioned Republicans who like weed (ETA: and occasionally don't like war, because taxes).

The second scientist in @Tyler's article sums up where I stand as far as the actual science. The differences in thinking and preferences between sex is scientifically verified and frankly obvious. Where it goes awry is trying to use this to generalize across specific populations and make policies (including pay) surrounding them. It's an absurd argument on the face of it. And certainly not one to make on your employer's own resources. :lol:

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:59 pm
The second scientist in @Tyler's article sums up where I stand as far as the actual science. The differences in thinking and preferences between sex is scientifically verified and frankly obvious. Where it goes awry is trying to use this to generalize across specific populations and make policies (including pay) surrounding them. It's an absurd argument on the face of it. And certainly not one to make on your employer's own resources. :lol:
that's maybe why the original author of the Google Manifesto explicitly said that humans should not draw tribalistic conclusions based on averages, but instead treat humans as individuals. he also warned against policies based on these group-based identities.

so Spartan_Warrior is now arguing for the Google Manifesto.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

I'm under the impression the "diversity policies" at Google that this guy is railing against amounted to some kind of educational training for women. Sounds fine to me. Especially since, I'm also under the impression that this entire conversation is happening in the context of (and as a result of) Google being sued for paying women less than men for comparable roles. The manifesto positions itself as defending that practice and arguing against the frankly nominal concession of educational training. So... no, I clearly don't support its misuse and misunderstanding of science in support of that stance. Women working the same roles as men should receive the same pay.

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

has Spartan_Warrior read the manifesto? the author does not oppose any educational programs for women. he merely suggests that maybe a <50% ratio of women in tech is not 100% due to sexism, but to individual interest. all the biological stuff is simply an attempt to reason about why it could be that women are not as interested in tech as men are. the author also explicitly states that he is for diversity and inclusion.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

I read through the end of the "TL;DR" section. Started skimming from this line on: "Discrimination to reach equal representation is unfair, divisive, and bad for business." What discrimination? A training program for women is discrimination?

Skimming the left and right biases section elicited a few smirks. There were several telling dog-whistles that further confirmed the ideology of the writer and the direction the memo was heading. Like the part where he attributes the stifling fascism inherent to all corporate structure as attributable to "Google's left bias". Again, noting the irony of complaining about "authoritarian" policies after specifying the "right-wing bias" (and implicitly his own) for "respect for authority".

I got pretty bored of it after that, to be honest. I skimmed his treatment of the sciences, noting only that it seemed rudimentary, and secondary to his real point and the context of the letter. His conclusion seemed to meander back to, indeed, that training programs for women and similar "special treatment" for "diversity candidates" is discriminating against poor him, and that these practices are oh-so-harmful for Google. (The company's interest being, of course, the most important interest to consider. After his own.)

From then on I was pretty distracted laughing at all the previously mentioned ironies involved in his inevitable firing for this.

BRUTE
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by BRUTE »

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:56 pm
I read through the end of the "TL;DR" section. Started skimming from this line on: "Discrimination to reach equal representation is unfair, divisive, and bad for business." What discrimination? A training program for women is discrimination?
no, the explicit and illegal discrimination mentioned by the author in the manifesto in hiring and promotion practices. as in, if men did this to women, it would (also) be illegal discrimination. the author does not seem to care about training programs per se very much. he links to scientific studies, and most scientists from the field who commented on the manifesto agree with at least the science part, if maybe not the author's politics.

brute wouldn't care about Spartan_Warrior making up his mind without reading primary sources, if this wasn't the direct road to serfdom. decadent fascism -> real fascism. Trump is the DIRECT RESULT of this kind of "touchy feely fascism".

this ties into Dragline's (quoted by Spartan_Warrior) "why blame any humans but Trump voters for Trump". simply, because this type of witch hunt of innocent humans leads bystanders towards the Strong Man (tm) that will Clean Up House.

many on this forum, Riggerjack comes to mind, have repeatedly stated: better Trump than Clinton, even if they didn't vote for Trump.

if Democrats continue this objectively wrong witch hunt absurdness, they can't be surprised by sane voters voting for literally anything else.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Political correctness run amok

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

brute wouldn't care about Spartan_Warrior making up his mind without reading primary sources
The really amazing thing is how I managed to specifically highlight the parts in the primary source that I found ironic if not outright problematic without reading said primary source.

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