Trump - Clown Genius

Should you squeeze the toothpaste tube in the middle or from the end?
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Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:58 am

You are correct -- good/bad is an opinion. There are no "objective measures" for politicians that are not subjective in-and-of themselves by definition.

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BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:40 pm

brute agrees with humans.

interesting that Dragline seems to judge a politician's goodness by the degree in which they will insulate effective power from the will of the unwashed masses. somewhat elitist (no judgement).

where brute differs is, what should a politician do instead? if not the will of the unwashed masses, what will will be enacted?

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Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:50 pm

You'll find your answers in the writings/speeches of Edmund Burke and the Federalist Papers I mentioned. This is why the U.S. does not have a democracy, but a representative government.

"In 1774, Burke's Speech to the Electors at Bristol at the Conclusion of the Poll was noted for its defence of the principles of representative government against the notion that elected officials should merely be delegates:

... it ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own. But his unbiased opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure; no, nor from the law and the constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.[63]

Political scientist Hanna Pitkin points out that Burke linked the interest of the district with the proper behaviour of its elected official, explaining, "Burke conceives of broad, relatively fixed interest, few in number and clearly defined, of which any group or locality has just one. These interests are largely economic or associated with particular localities whose livelihood they characterize, in his over-all prosperity they involve."[64]

Burke was a leading sceptic with respect to democracy. While admitting that theoretically, in some cases it might be desirable, he insisted a democratic government in Britain in his day would not only be inept, but also oppressive. He opposed democracy for three basic reasons. First, government required a degree of intelligence and breadth of knowledge of the sort that occurred rarely among the common people. Second, he thought that if they had the vote, common people had dangerous and angry passions that could be aroused easily by demagogues; he feared that the authoritarian impulses that could be empowered by these passions would undermine cherished traditions and established religion, leading to violence and confiscation of property. Third, Burke warned that democracy would create a tyranny over unpopular minorities, who needed the protection of the upper classes."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke

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bryan
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by bryan » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:29 pm

With the technology we have today, it seems possible to try out more direct democracies at the state/county/city/neighbourhood level.. and even do away with such rigid borders anyway and calculate the replacement concept of "borders" in an automated way via the data (though I'm sure some of this would lend itself to politics as usual).

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BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:07 pm

Dragline wrote:First, government required a degree of intelligence and breadth of knowledge of the sort that occurred rarely among the common people. Second, he thought that if they had the vote, common people had dangerous and angry passions that could be aroused easily by demagogues; he feared that the authoritarian impulses that could be empowered by these passions would undermine cherished traditions and established religion, leading to violence and confiscation of property. Third, Burke warned that democracy would create a tyranny over unpopular minorities, who needed the protection of the upper classes."
check, check, and check. but what will or agenda should the elite enforce? their own? some enlightened greater good? which one?

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Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:32 pm

The answer to your question is in the speech above. They (yes, its a brand newly accepted singular pronoun as of a few weeks ago) ought to act in the best interests of their constituents overall, which may or may not be what the constituents are clamoring for at the moment. And then be able to explain their decisions.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:18 pm

Bikeshedding. Or, if you prefer, rearranging deck chairs on the presidency.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:47 am

A court ordered FISA warrant was issued. That requires probably cause. In this case, probably cause that Page was "acting as an agent of a foreign power".

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/18/politics/ ... index.html

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Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:58 am

You mean "probable cause." It's not a particularly high legal hurdle, but it is a hurdle.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:13 pm

Oh man, that made me laugh out loud. Probably probable. I was still asleep.

Yes, a judge looked at the evidence and decided that a reasonable person would conclude that the president's foreign policy advisor was working as a foreign agent. We don't have the evidence itself, but that fact says a lot.

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Tyler9000
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Tyler9000 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:41 pm

Ego wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:13 pm
We don't have the evidence itself, but that fact says a lot.
Actually, we do. It's the famous "Trump dossier" released by Buzzfeed a few months ago. The one of "golden showers" fame containing a few easily falsifiable claims. It was written by a former British Intelligence agent hired by Democrat opposition research firm Fusion GPS to dig up dirt on Trump during the election. Not exactly a politically neutral piece of intelligence.

The way people react to news regarding Trump truly is a Rorschach test.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:11 pm

Tyler9000 wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:41 pm
Ego wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:13 pm
We don't have the evidence itself, but that fact says a lot.
The way people react to news regarding Trump truly is a Rorschach test.
Rorschach indeed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 607cc3417b

The government’s application for the surveillance order targeting Page included a lengthy declaration that laid out investigators’ basis for believing that Page was an agent of the Russian government and knowingly engaged in clandestine intelligence activities on behalf of Moscow, officials said.

Among other things, the application cited contacts that he had with a Russian intelligence operative in New York City in 2013, officials said. Those contacts had earlier surfaced in a federal espionage case brought by the Justice Department against the intelligence operative and two other Russian agents. In addition, the application said Page had other contacts with Russian operatives that have not been publicly disclosed, officials said.

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jennypenny
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:23 pm

The worst part of Comey's disclosure was that it turns out the FBI was investigating both presidential candidates in the months leading up to the election.

We deserve everything we get if we let our political parties serve up such flawed candidates.

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Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:29 am

Agreed. Though, by no means are they equally flawed.

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Riggerjack
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:54 am

I can't believe anyone is still talking about this.

Russian influence in American politics is nothing new. Look at the changes in our prints' portrayal of Hitler when Stalin and he were carving up Eastern Europe, vs the portrayal after Germany attacked Russia.

Do you think the radicals of the 60-70s were spontaneous?

Foreign intervention in our political process started before we had a political process.

The Democrats put forth a candidate who commanded too high a price, that's all. I mean, I understand being butthurt because the Russians switched parties, but this endless whining about it seems... disingenuous.

All you need is a standard presidential candidate, (one without the Clinton foundation and 24 years of power politics) and his/her prices will be reasonable.

I'm sure you are tired of hearing this, but Bernie would have been an investment worth buying. But choosing between a Clinton at record highs, and Trump, at a bargain; I can understand speculation on Trump.

Bring in a new CEO for the DNC. Refocus on reducing customer churn. Better customer service. Generating value. Regaining market share. Higher returns will attract more foreign investment.

Call your congressman. Let him know your expectations: Always Be Closing.

I have faith that if Democrats roll up their sleeves, and really focus, they can sell out America just as well as Republicans.

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Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:43 am

Personally, I just keep these threads going to annoy you. :)

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Riggerjack
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:39 am

As good a reason as any...

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:26 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:54 am
I can't believe anyone is still talking about this.
Funny, I look at it the other way around.

If someone, regardless of party affiliation, is NOT bothered by the fact that the Russian government likely influenced the results of the election then there is something wrong with that person. If someone is NOT bothered by the fact that the Russians continue to meddle (Calexit for instance) then I think it says a lot about them.

Don't think! Don't talk about it! You must be butthurt if you can't let it go!

Well, yeah, I'm offended by this ignorance offensive.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by IlliniDave » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:47 pm

Russia has meddled in US affairs and vice-versa at least since the end of WWII. If people want to talk about the last 6 months installment, fine by me, but unless it gets to the point where there's something actionable (and reasonable) to talk about it'll be hard for me to get too engaged. But it's good to see that nationalism is not completely dead and people at least feel the need to protect some facet of our national identity: our tradition of mostly upstanding internal elections.

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Riggerjack
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:14 pm

If someone, regardless of party affiliation, is NOT bothered by the fact that the Russian government likely influenced the results of the election then there is something wrong with that person. If someone is NOT bothered by the fact that the Russians continue to meddle (Calexit for instance) then I think it says a lot about them.
I admit it. Russian influence of elections doesn't particularly bother me. Maybe because I vote libertarian, and nobody is willing to invest in libertarian influence.

But really, I think it is more having to do with lack of any action to resolve this. The Russians hacked everything. Uh huh. And I would be more up in arms about that, if we didn't also hack.

Hell, the only reason we're talking about this is the Russians switched parties.

Oh, and also ignorance. I freely admit to ignorance. I have pretty much avoided any form of news since we elected the Douche. This is just self defense. Unlike Ego, I don't enjoy anger with no resolution.

I'm sure the Douche did something in the last 3 months I approve of, but it ain't worth sifting through all of the crap to find it. I had low expectations, and still he has failed to do even that well. I defended Perry as energy secretary because it is a job for political hacks, and Perry is a hack. Not because Perry was a good choice. The rest seem to be just as bad.

For me, this feels like the early 2000's. Avoiding listening to the President or news about him. Knowing that anything I hear will make me less happy than ignorance.

If anyone comes up with actions more effective than calling the Douche a douche, with links to other people calling him a douche, I'm interested. Other than that, I plan to spend the next 3.5 years focused on things I can fix. And occasionally trolling 76 page long threads about a guy who probably can't count to 76. :roll:

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BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:50 pm

Ego wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:26 pm
If someone, regardless of party affiliation, is NOT bothered by the fact that the Russian government likely influenced the results of the election then there is something wrong with that person. If someone is NOT bothered by the fact that the Russians continue to meddle (Calexit for instance) then I think it says a lot about them.
what does it say? brute does not particularly care.

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Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:30 am

@riggerjack
Probably the better way to go with this mess. Especially, when I find myself angrier at the people that voted for him than I am at him.
Riggerjack wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:14 pm
And occasionally trolling 76 page long threads about a guy who probably can't count to 76. :roll:
This is so true. The whole Pavarotti thing...argh. We will definitely see how strong our friendships are with the Europeans, Australians, etc. after this presidency.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Spartan_Warrior » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:53 am

If anyone comes up with actions more effective than calling the Douche a douche, with links to other people calling him a douche, I'm interested.
The best political strategy is to create an opposition party that is actually oppositional. One that serves people rather than corporations. One that embraces the struggle of all, including poor whites, rather than engaging in divisive idpol. Some specific tactics:

https://justicedemocrats.com/

https://draftbernie.org/

https://runtulsirun.org

Also, the opposite of this:
I find myself angrier at the people that voted for him than I am at him
These are the people that need to be engaged. Why did they vote for Trump? We may disagree with their reasoning, their choice of scapegoats, their expectation that Trump will deliver... but we damn well better listen to what they were hoping to achieve with their vote if we want their vote in the future. Which we do.

(Spoiler: What they want are the same things all people want. Health, happiness, prosperity. A government that listens. Respectable work and a living wage. It's not complicated. Sanders manages to appeal to these people in the very states that lost it for Clinton. What is he doing and saying that other Democrats aren't?)

BTW, if you're not willing to engage Trump supporters politically, the only practical means left to achieve a majority is to kill them. That is, an actual revolution, or at least civil war. I think making an opposition party that includes those people is probably preferable to most unarmed liberals...

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Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:43 am

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:53 am

BTW, if you're not willing to engage Trump supporters politically, the only practical means left to achieve a majority is to kill them. That is, an actual revolution, or at least civil war. I think making an opposition party that includes those people is probably preferable to most unarmed liberals...
Or just wait until they are dead, which is a viable strategy given the demographics.

But you are correct that a more palatable and actual alternative must be presented. Otherwise, you could just end up with competent venality and different scapegoating instead of incompetent venality and current scapegoating.

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Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:32 am

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:53 am
I find myself angrier at the people that voted for him than I am at him
These are the people that need to be engaged. Why did they vote for Trump? We may disagree with their reasoning, their choice of scapegoats, their expectation that Trump will deliver... but we damn well better listen to what they were hoping to achieve with their vote if we want their vote in the future. Which we do.

(Spoiler: What they want are the same things all people want. Health, happiness, prosperity. A government that listens. Respectable work and a living wage. It's not complicated. Sanders manages to appeal to these people in the very states that lost it for Clinton. What is he doing and saying that other Democrats aren't?)

BTW, if you're not willing to engage Trump supporters politically, the only practical means left to achieve a majority is to kill them. That is, an actual revolution, or at least civil war. I think making an opposition party that includes those people is probably preferable to most unarmed liberals...
Oh, I couldn't agree more. However, this requires me to be the bigger person and ignore their temper tantrum that selected someone who obviously would not help them, but would at least hurt everyone else. They say they want to be respected, and everyone else, including many on here, say that as well. They then go out and do something that encourages the exact opposite. (Obviously, emotion is still a big part of reaction to this event.)

Not to mention that I do not believe the majority of these people have any idea what they actually want or what policies would actually get them these ephemeral desires.

For instance, one of my best friend's parents both voted for Trump. His mother was then incredulous when Trump issued the executive order defunding Planned Parenthood. How could she not know? This was not a secret during his campaign.

Then during a discussion with a cousin who still lives in my hometown, it was suggested people like him, hard manual laborers, need Social Security in it's current form, while in the same breath saying he wants taxes cut. I don't entirely disagree on the Social Security argument, but the incongruous addition of lowering taxes is a hard hurdle to overcome. They, of course, entirely ignored me when I raised that point and didn't even respond to it.

These same people also vote to defang every union and then complain about low wages.

Now, by no means do I think their problems are all their own doing, just more than they would ever admit.

The changing economic environment has definitely left them behind and a significant new course of action is necessary:

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... M1MDU4NAS2

So, as I said, I agree completely, but it will not be easy for me. Not that it has to be. It would just be nice to not have to convince all of them that the moon landings actually happened and the Earth isn't flat before we get into the actual complicated details of real policies.

Or, I could just wait until they are dead, as Dragline suggested. Not the ideal strategy (nor do I think it's Dragline's).

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