Trump - Clown Genius

Should you squeeze the toothpaste tube in the middle or from the end?
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Riggerjack
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Riggerjack » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:43 am

Election tampering is fact, not fiction. It is regular, and uninvestigated.

See:
" Landslide Lyndon "
Tammany machine
The entire history of Philly, Chicago, New York, and black voter suppression in the South.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-new ... re-by-130/ where the Republican won, then recount, and won, then recount again (Washington Constitution allows 2 recounts, with the final recount being binding) then, shock and surprise, the Democrat won when it couldn't be appealed.

I quoted a progressive newspaper, they didn't mention the king county AG saying there would be no investigation into voter fraud, or prosecution of FELONS who voted, as it would be hard to prove they knew they weren't legally privileged to vote. But then again, it is king county, so not trying to enforce the law, because that would be hard, is par for the course.

Were there millions of fraudulent votes this last time? I doubt it. But we have both a long history of election tampering, and much closer elections.

Which always makes me wonder what the incentive is for folks denying that this is a problem.

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Gilberto de Piento
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Gilberto de Piento » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:51 am

Chad wrote:
Gilberto de Piento wrote:
The majority supporting Trump won't change their mind no matter what.
The majority doesn't support Trump. Of the people who voted, most voted for the other candidate.
That's not what my sentences says. It doesn't say, "The majority supports Trump", it says "The majority supporting Trump." By no means did he win the popular vote against one of the worst candidates. He has no mandate.
Sorry, my mistake. We are in agreement.

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Gilberto de Piento
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Gilberto de Piento » Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:18 pm

Election tampering is fact, not fiction. It is regular, and uninvestigated.
Many states are wholly controlled by Republicans who spend a lot of time on voter fraud. There's nothing stopping them from investigating and they do. They never prosecute anyone besides the odd person who votes twice. If there was fraud wouldn't they be prosecuting the offenders since it would help to justify their reforms like voter ID requirements?

The article you linked to isn't evidence of voter fraud. There was a recount, multiple counts came up with different results, the legal system resolved it. The system should be designed better so the voting results are clear cut. That isn't fraud. If that is fraud then George Bush was a fraudulent president.

I fully support making our voting system secure and investigating and prosecuting fraud. The problem is that you are making big claims that voter fraud is happening but you are providing no evidence. Show me a large number of people convicted of voter fraud and I'll agree this is a problem.

scriptbunny
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by scriptbunny » Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:06 pm

ICYMI, recent executive order temporarily barring refugees and immigrants entry from citizens of seven Muslim countries is also preventing current visa holders and even permanent residents from re-entry. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN15C0KX

Guys, this is nuts.

Campitor
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Campitor » Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:26 pm

Gilberto de Piento wrote:
Election tampering is fact, not fiction. It is regular, and uninvestigated.
Many states are wholly controlled by Republicans who spend a lot of time on voter fraud. There's nothing stopping them from investigating and they do. They never prosecute anyone besides the odd person who votes twice. If there was fraud wouldn't they be prosecuting the offenders since it would help to justify their reforms like voter ID requirements?

The article you linked to isn't evidence of voter fraud. There was a recount, multiple counts came up with different results, the legal system resolved it. The system should be designed better so the voting results are clear cut. That isn't fraud. If that is fraud then George Bush was a fraudulent president.

I fully support making our voting system secure and investigating and prosecuting fraud. The problem is that you are making big claims that voter fraud is happening but you are providing no evidence. Show me a large number of people convicted of voter fraud and I'll agree this is a problem.

Anyone here watch the HBO documentary Hacking Democracy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacking_Democracy/)? The documentary shows how an electronic based election can be easily hacked:

"Another hacking technique was demonstrated through hacking the actual computer code used in the Diebold Accu-Vote memory cards. This method was discovered by Finnish computer security expert Harri Hursti and is known as "the Hursti Hack". In this hack, Harri Hursti rigged the Diebold optical scan voting system to make the wrong candidate win by adding negative (minus) votes to one race. This resulted in that race having votes literally subtracted from its vote total. These methods were tested by the Leon County Supervisor of Elections, Ion Sancho, on the actual Diebold optical scan voting system used by Tallahassee, Florida in all their prior elections. This method demonstrated, contrary to a previous Diebold statement, that a person attempting to rig the votes of a precinct would need access to only the memory card, not the optical scan voting system or tabulation software. This method, when cross-checked between the optical scan voting system and tabulation software, falsely appears to be legitimate, and further makes the voting machine produce a false zero-vote print-out, falsely confirming that the memory card has no votes inside it before voting begins. Following this historic hack Ion Sancho stated: ' If I had not known what was behind this I would have certified this election as a true count of the votes.' "

VerifiedVoting.org shows(https://www.verifiedvoting.org/resource ... on-audits/)that only 1 state has an excellent post-election auditing system. Here is an example of what happens when you have a good vs bad election system and post-election auditing program:

"A compelling case for post-election audits can be drawn through a comparison of the 2008 Senate race in Minnesota and the 2006 Congressional race in Florida’s 13th District. On election night in 2008, based on the electronic tallies, Norm Coleman was reported to be the winner of the Minnesota Senate rase. Only because Minnesota used paper ballot optical scan systems statewide and only because election workers hand-counted all of the almost 3 million paper ballots that were cast in the election could Minnesota determine the true winner of the election: Al Franken was eventually found to have won the race.

In stark contrast, in the 2006 Congressional race in Florida’s 13th District, candidate Vern Buchanan was reportedly ahead of candidate Christine Jennings by 369 votes.901 However, in Sarasota County, one of the five counties in the District, a staggering 18,000 votes were not recorded for the Congressional race. That was a higher under-vote rate (almost 13%) than in any of the other counties (in other counties, the highest under-vote rate was just under 6%, and the others were between 2% and 3%). Unlike Minnesota, however, in 2006 Sarasota County used paperless DREs. Therefore, there were no independent records of the votes cast in the polling places in that county. Some, including the U.S. Government Accountability Office, ultimately concluded that the under-vote was the result of a confusing touch screen ballot that caused voters to overlook the Congressional race. But because there was no evidence (paper ballots) that could be reviewed to confirm the intention of the voters, there was no way to dispute the electronic result. Following a lengthy legal battle Vern Buchanan was sworn in."


We can't say how bad voter fraud/election rigging/election errors are until we do a better job of auditing.

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BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE » Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:48 pm

Chad wrote:By no means did he win the popular vote against one of the worst candidates. He has no mandate.
that's not how the mandate works though, is it. Trump played to win the electoral college, and he did. if the popular vote decided the presidency, he could've played a different strategy.

do any humans here know what the 7 muslim countries are? all the articles just mention "Iran + 7".

EMJ
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by EMJ » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:20 pm

do any humans here know what the 7 muslim countries are? all the articles just mention "Iran + 7".
For at least 90 days, citizens of Iraq, Iran, Somalia, Yemen, Sudan and Libya are barred from entering the country. Syrians have been banned from entering the US indefinitely.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/p ... 14041.html

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bryan
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by bryan » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:29 pm

BRUTE wrote: Trump played to win the electoral college, and he did. if the popular vote decided the presidency, he could've played a different strategy.
Seems tautological...

Regardless, he looked extremely surprised that he had won and had not been planning on it afaict.
BRUTE wrote: do any humans here know what the 7 muslim countries are? all the articles just mention "Iran + 7".
> section 217(a)(12) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1187(a)(12)

Iraq and Syria are called out by name. Otherwise I think the agency has authority under some guidelines to decide what other countries. I couldn't find it in official documents but news reports say: Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Somalia and Yemen


Trump's proving to be worse (more clown than genius) than expected.

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Tyler9000
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Tyler9000 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:35 pm

I figure if I keep editing something so many times, I should probably just delete it and collect my thoughts.
Last edited by Tyler9000 on Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:14 pm, edited 8 times in total.

ffj
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by ffj » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:43 pm

Chad wrote:But, you support a candidate that makes it personal. How do you come to terms with that?
I support finding out what is true or not true. It is not my responsibility to be the torch bearer for Trump and every problem everyone has with them. I voted for him because I thought Hillary would be worse, not because I was a fanboy. I'm fairly detached from the emotional side of these arguments for good reason, and most of the emotional points are being made by the people who hate him. The problem occurs when they project onto me what they hate about Trump and subscribe dubious intentions. Diversity of thought is a good thing.

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Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:46 pm

Tyler9000 wrote:I figure if I keep editing something so many times, I should probably just delete it and collect my thoughts.
I do this too. Always mad at myself by the end for the initial terrible statement.

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Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:58 pm

BRUTE wrote:
Chad wrote:By no means did he win the popular vote against one of the worst candidates. He has no mandate.
that's not how the mandate works though, is it. Trump played to win the electoral college, and he did. if the popular vote decided the presidency, he could've played a different strategy.

do any humans here know what the 7 muslim countries are? all the articles just mention "Iran + 7".
Elections, especially ones with a large margin of victory, are often said to give the newly elected government or elected official an implicit mandate to put into effect certain policies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_(politics)

The above is why he doesn't have a mandate. Yes, he won the electoral college. I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing that the majority of the county is fully behind him. Generally, that is what is meant when "mandate" is used in elections. I realize the standard dictionary definition is a little different, but the above is how it is used.

Historically, one would say Reagan, FDR, Nixon (surprisingly, I guess it was Vietnam), LBJ, Eisenhower...maybe a couple others. Other than Nixon they all did quite a lot.

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Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:01 pm

ffj wrote:
Chad wrote:But, you support a candidate that makes it personal. How do you come to terms with that?
It is not my responsibility to be the torch bearer for Trump and every problem everyone has with them.
I think you are going to have a hard time convincing others of this given the divisiveness he is creating. I'm quite fearful that in 4 years the mood of the country will be quite bad.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by halfmoon » Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:06 pm

ffj wrote:The problem occurs when they project onto me what they hate about Trump and subscribe dubious intentions. Diversity of thought is a good thing.
Agreed that diversity of thought is good, though I'm not sure our new president agrees. However: this election presented some difficult choices and crystal-ball-gazing for which no one needs to be blamed. If Hillary had won, there would undoubtedly be plenty of opportunity for recrimination from those who had opposed her. The key at this point (IMHO) is to assess the morality and impact of each presidential action and express support/opposition regardless of whether it validates our previous choices or not.
Chad wrote:I'm quite fearful that in 4 years the mood of the country will be quite bad.
I don't think it's going to take four years...or even one. My hopeful self feels that something could be done about this, but I don't know what.

Campitor
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Campitor » Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:20 pm

Chad wrote:
ffj wrote:
Chad wrote:But, you support a candidate that makes it personal. How do you come to terms with that?
It is not my responsibility to be the torch bearer for Trump and every problem everyone has with them.
I think you are going to have a hard time convincing others of this given the divisiveness he is creating. I'm quite fearful that in 4 years the mood of the country will be quite bad.
I would say that the mood of the country has been bad for a while but now the candidate of choice has flipped so the other side of the nation is feeling the pain. I voted for Obama 2x but I wasn't blind to what the non-Obama voters were complaining about. The coastal economic areas of California and the Northeast don't feel economic slumps as badly as the rest of the nation. The west and East coasts are shielded by their enormous economies and wealth generating infrastructure. While the Midwest was getting bent over by the economy, Democrats only wanted to talk about gender politics, social justice issues, and inner city problems. They should have been spending an equal amount of time listening to the rural voters and why they felt the economy and the country was leaving them behind; they needed to show compassion and explain how they were going to help them. Not everyone can pickup and move to an expensive city - its not so easy to leave extended family when its been the center of your social hub and culture.

My personal opinion is that both sides, Obama-haters and Trump-haters, are exaggerating their claims. We need to get passed the tribal mentality and elect more middle of the road candidates and do away with extreme right-wing and left-wing candidates. And the power of the presidency has grown too strong. We need congress to take back its legislative power and behave in a more bipartisan manner. Everyone is so happy to cede power to their candidate until the other side wins the election. No one thinks about the future when they are voting extra power and authority to their president of choice.

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Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:22 pm

Took all of one week for a judge to rule that he's violated the Constitution. No real surprise there, although I wonder if its some kind of record:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-nsP- ... 5LUln/view

But actually the more disturbing news of the day is that he put the MInister of Propaganda on the National Security Council, "on par with the Secretaries of State, Defense, Homeland Security, and Treasury", which is virtually unprecedented (or "unpresidented" as he spells it).

https://www.lawfareblog.com/national-se ... sc-and-hsc

scriptbunny
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by scriptbunny » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:37 pm

Don't forget he also took off the Director of National Intelligence and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Campitor
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Campitor » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:49 pm

Dragline wrote:Took all of one week for a judge to rule that he's violated the Constitution. No real surprise there, although I wonder if its some kind of record:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-nsP- ... 5LUln/view

But actually the more disturbing news of the day is that he put the MInister of Propaganda on the National Security Council, "on par with the Secretaries of State, Defense, Homeland Security, and Treasury", which is virtually unprecedented (or "unpresidented" as he spells it).

https://www.lawfareblog.com/national-se ... sc-and-hsc
This a stay of removal until the constitutionality of the order is decided. And it only protects those already in the USA being detained on US soil. It doesn't help anyone who is not on US soil. The judge's stay of removal makes no ruling in regards to the constitutionality of the law.

For the record - I'm an immigrant and a naturalized citizen and I don't like this law since it affects those who had already undergone the process of immigration and were granted legal US visas. I'm for enforcing our immigration laws but not for breaking existing visas obtained legally via due process.

But stating the judge ruled the order as unconstitutional is inaccurate - she only mentions that the probability of the order being overturned is likely. The constitutionality of the Trump order is yet to be decided.

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Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:05 pm

Read paragraph 4 of the order again. You can't be enjoined from taking "further acts and misconduct in violation of the Constitution" unless you've already taken some "acts and misconduct in violation of the Constitution." The order makes no sense otherwise. And yes, every judge's decision is subject to review, first by the judge herself through motions practice, then by the Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit in this instance, and then by the United States Supreme Court. But an order is an order and it must have a legal basis grounded in law, which in this case happens to be the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses contained in the Amendments to the United States Constitution.

And yes, paragraph one talks about the likelihood of success on the merits. This is a four factor test that applies to all applications for interim relief under Rule 65 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. All it means functionally is that the issue is subject to further review by the same judge.

ffj
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by ffj » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:42 pm

@Chad
The mood will be dependent on job and wealth creation and national security. Two areas Trump is heavily focusing on and if he is even mildly successful in these areas than it would be hard to beat him if he ran again. I don't believe anybody will be losing any fundamental rights.

@halfmoon

"The key at this point (IMHO) is to assess the morality and impact of each presidential action and express support/opposition regardless of whether it validates our previous choices or not."

Absolutely. Maybe a little less on the morality as it varies amongst people but yes, drop the partisan lines and view his actions independently of ones hatred or love of him.

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bryan
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by bryan » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:58 pm

ffj wrote:@Chad
The mood will be dependent on job and wealth creation and national security. Two areas Trump is heavily focusing on and if he is even mildly successful in these areas than it would be hard to beat him if he ran again. I don't believe anybody will be losing any fundamental rights.
Well that's not good, because we all know financial collapse is coming sometime in the next four years :lol: :lol: :(

We'll see how he does. From what I can tell he's making some good moves and some bad moves.

His first week as President and he's already banning folks from a handful of countries from coming home to their families here in the USA for no valid reason. I'd say that's getting close to the line.

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Gilberto de Piento
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Gilberto de Piento » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:27 am

We need to get passed the tribal mentality and elect more middle of the road candidates and do away with extreme right-wing and left-wing candidates. And the power of the presidency has grown too strong. We need congress to take back its legislative power and behave in a more bipartisan manner. Everyone is so happy to cede power to their candidate until the other side wins the election. No one thinks about the future when they are voting extra power and authority to their president of choice.
Agreed. And get money out of politics and eliminate gerrymandering.

Campitor
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Campitor » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:43 am

Dragline wrote:Read paragraph 4 of the order again. You can't be enjoined from taking "further acts and misconduct in violation of the Constitution" unless you've already taken some "acts and misconduct in violation of the Constitution." The order makes no sense otherwise. And yes, every judge's decision is subject to review, first by the judge herself through motions practice, then by the Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit in this instance, and then by the United States Supreme Court. But an order is an order and it must have a legal basis grounded in law, which in this case happens to be the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses contained in the Amendments to the United States Constitution.

And yes, paragraph one talks about the likelihood of success on the merits. This is a four factor test that applies to all applications for interim relief under Rule 65 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. All it means functionally is that the issue is subject to further review by the same judge.
The 4th paragraph states:

It is appropriate and just that, pending completion of a hearing before the Court on the merits of the Petition, that the Respondents be enjoined and restrained from the commission of further acts and misconduct in violation of the Constitution as described in the Emergency Motion for Stay of Removal.

The court is basically saying it believes there has been a violation and is stopping any further actions done by the Government until an official ruling. Legally the judge hasn't ruled the action unconstitutional but is taking actions since there is evidence that it may be unconstitutional. This is similar to when someone is charged with a crime. A judge issues a warrant for a person to be arrested, the defendant is charged, put in jail with a possible bail opportunity, and forced to undergo a trial. The accused isn't legally guilty but it still being detained and his rights temporarily suspended until his guilt or innocence is legally established at the conclusion of a trial. The Stay of Removal is basically a warrant to detain the actions of the government until proven guilty (unconstitutional) or not-guilty (constitutional).

PS - I believe this interpretation of the executive order to detain legal Visa holders and permanent residents will be found unconstitutional and its unconstitutionality upheld by subsequent courts.

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Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline » Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:00 pm

Except the legal standards are not the same. To charge someone with a crime, a prosecutor need only show probable cause in most cases, which is a very low standard of proof. And whether they are actually detained pending trial is determined by a separate proceeding under a different standard as to whether they pose a flight risk -- not whether they are likely to be guilty or not on the merits, which would violate their rights.

The standard for obtaining a civil injunction is "a substantial likelihood of success on the merits", along with proof of irreparable harm and balancing tests involving two other factors. But I think we are otherwise in agreement. I have not read the order that was also issued last night by a federal judge in Virginia that had a similar effect. EDIT: It appears that two other federal judges in other states also issued similar orders.

Not surprisingly, much of this could have been avoided had the White House followed the standard procedure of actually consulting lawyers in the department of justice before issuing an executive order, and crafting something that would have been a lot less dramatic and a lot more likely to be in compliance with the law.

Campitor
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Campitor » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:08 pm

Except the legal standards are not the same. To charge someone with a crime, a prosecutor need only show probable cause in most cases, which is a very low standard of proof. And whether they are actually detained pending trial is determined by a separate proceeding under a different standard as to whether they pose a flight risk -- not whether they are likely to be guilty or not on the merits, which would violate their rights.

The standard for obtaining a civil injunction is "a substantial likelihood of success on the merits", along with proof of irreparable harm and balancing tests involving two other factors. But I think we are otherwise in agreement. I have not read the order that was also issued last night by a federal judge in Virginia that had a similar effect. EDIT: It appears that two other federal judges in other states also issued similar orders.
I know the standards are different - I was using an analogy to show that actions/rights can be suspended without a formal ruling in regards to the final outcome of a case. I stand by my statement that the order hasn't been formally ruled as unconstitutional yet.
Not surprisingly, much of this could have been avoided had the White House followed the standard procedure of actually consulting lawyers in the department of justice before issuing an executive order, and crafting something that would have been a lot less dramatic and a lot more likely to be in compliance with the law.
Agreed.

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