Trump - Clown Genius

Should you squeeze the toothpaste tube in the middle or from the end?
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jacob
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jacob » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:40 am

@SW - My sportsball model of voters is much more simple. What do people want? Fundamentally they want to cheer for their team first and foremost... maintaining "being a Cubs fan" as part of their self-identity. Many dedicated fans will also have a dedicated feud team so it's also important to be against the other team. The next priority is feeling like your team is winning or at least putting up a good fight. Following the game rules or making brilliant plays is the analogy to political points ... and those goals are tertiary.

Post-election analysis bears this out. Trump is quite popular not just his base but also amongst the next layer of the onion so to speak. This is despite not having gotten much of any politics done and flipping on a large number of political issues. What matters is that their team won and subsequently that their team has put up a good fight. This leads me to my conclusion ...
  • Supporting my team to maintain my self-identity as a life-long fan.
  • Being against the other team. (E.g. if you're a Notre Dame fan, you're obligated to be against MSU .. and so if any other team is playing MSU, you're also obligated to cheer for that other team.)
  • Achieving a good game with brilliant plays and good refereeing.
When going to a game, winning friends and influencing people is not best achieved by arguing fouls or MVPs with the fans from the opposing team in general or fleshing out which team is objectively speaking the better one; because for most people, that's not the #1 or #2 reason why they're into watching sports.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by IlliniDave » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:47 am

@jacob, you are starting to get it! :)

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BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:51 pm

i.e. a two-party democracy is the perfect political system; not because it's good for the populace, but because it leads to optimally polarized team fighting. turns out evolution only cares for itself.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Jake9870 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:06 am

This is where I'd like to see our political system go.

https://youtu.be/3Y3jE3B8HsE

Something more akin to France? Although seems they might be making 'France Great Again' as well.

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BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:03 am

brute is hoping for something more Snow Crash

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bryan
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by bryan » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:24 pm

What is in the video Jake9870 posted? I am on my mobile's internet for a few days and have to avoid videos.. without watching it.. I very much dis-like France's approach to most things.

@brute, in a Snow Crash world.. how do you imagine EREers (or you personally) would be living? Near poverty level, unaffiliated w/ any corps or governments, dis-connected from the VR world? Such a world might motivate me to join up with a good corp instead of RE..

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Jake9870 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:10 pm

The video is an example of an alternative voting system. A way to avoid ending up with just two candidates/parties. The video advocates rounds of voting and being able to vote for multiple candidates in order of sequential preference. Ergo if your first choice in candidate is a 3rd party your 1st vote goes to them. If they are eliminated the vote will go to your second choice. This would help small/independent parties gather votes without fear of "your vote not counting"

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by bryan » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:27 pm


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BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:50 pm

@bryan: to be honest, brute hasn't thought it through. he just likes cyberpunk :) he might join a strong corp, too. or maybe those types of societies are awesome to retire in, just no books about that part.

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Riggerjack
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:09 pm

Agreed, we have a horrible voting system
I disagree. In our system, only swing States matter. Since I live in a blue by 2:1 margin state, I have never been bothered by a candidate. Here in WA, even primary candidates don't show up, usually. Trump was here once, I don't think Clinton could find us on a map, and as far as I can tell, never even sent an intern.

Sucks for swing States, I'm sure.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Campitor » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:30 pm

Ego wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:26 pm


If someone, regardless of party affiliation, is NOT bothered by the fact that the Russian government likely influenced the results of the election then there is something wrong with that person. If someone is NOT bothered by the fact that the Russians continue to meddle (Calexit for instance) then I think it says a lot about them.
It's hard to be bothered by Russian influence when the US is so open and deliberate in their intervention in other countries politics and elections - and I'm talking about our allied nations. It's hard to be bothered about these Russian accusations of meddling when Hillary was a deeply flawed candidate to begin with. Trump vs Hillary was Godzilla vs the Smog Monster. It was hard to be bothered by the Russian leaks when the info that was published was never denounced as false by the dems. And it's not like the Russians rigged voter machines.

The election was basically the "pussy grabber" vs "I didn't know a personal server for government business was illegal despite having served on the Armed Services subcommittee on emerging threats and cyber terrorism." The losing side wants to blame the "deplorables" and the russkies instead of the DNC's turd-of-an-election strategy/candidate.

When you look at the States that went to Trump, in 2016 they produced a combined 828 billion dollars in exports. And an average of 77% of these jobs depend on manufactured goods to support these exports; the total number of these jobs depending on exports is 4,152,549. I got this information here: http://www.trade.gov/mas/ian/statereports/. I had to input the numbers into a spreadsheet to get the totals.

Trump promised to bring more manufacturing jobs back and to protect existing manufacturing jobs; his speeches had traction (I didn't vote for the grand-pubah-bloviator). Meanwhile Hillary's speeches on protecting manufacturing jobs didn't gain any traction - too much policy wonk talk to get voters engaged (I didn't vote for her either). She was a candidate with just too much baggage. The DNC screwed up by picking her. The working class didn't trust her. And the mainstream media didn't help either with their constant churn of terrorist coverage which fueled the xenophobic fires that helped Mr I'll-build-a-wall to win; the porous US/Mexican border didn't help either.

Someone from the DNC needs to put a stake through her future presidential ambitions. The only way she wins the presidency is if she runs against Bernie Madoff - and it would still be a tight race.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:00 am

Oooh, looks like Dunning-Kruger x 2 today:

"I thought being President would be easier"

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... ce=twitter

-- and --

"As the social psychologist David Dunning wrote during the campaign, “Some voters, especially those facing significant distress in their life, might like some of what they hear from Trump, but they do not know enough to hold him accountable for the serious gaffes he makes.” In other words, it’s not that they forgave Trump for being wrong, but rather that they failed “to recognize those gaffes as missteps” in the first place."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 100926836/

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Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:00 am

Oooh, looks like Dunning-Kruger x 2 today:

"I thought being President would be easier"

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... ce=twitter

-- and --

"As the social psychologist David Dunning wrote during the campaign, “Some voters, especially those facing significant distress in their life, might like some of what they hear from Trump, but they do not know enough to hold him accountable for the serious gaffes he makes.” In other words, it’s not that they forgave Trump for being wrong, but rather that they failed “to recognize those gaffes as missteps” in the first place."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 100926836/

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Spartan_Warrior » Tue May 02, 2017 6:45 pm

@Jacob, I think your model is Pareto-efficient in that it probably accounts for 80-90% of the voting populace. But in politics, as in permaculture, the interesting stuff happens at the margins. There are those small percentages who do "change shirts" based on the message, the candidate, whatever, and those people are the reason Clinton lost. If everyone simply voted by shirt color then Clinton would have won as was universally expected. But working class whites in traditionally Democratic strongholds like Michigan and Wisconsin--many of whom voted for Obama--instead turned out for Trump.

See: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... 55?ocid=sf

"Post-election analysis bears this out. Trump is quite popular not just his base but also amongst the next layer of the onion so to speak."

Also, I don't really see this as the case... aren't his approval ratings (deservedly) in the toilet? I've seen media and anecdotal reports of buyers' remorse among his supporters.

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Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Fri May 05, 2017 12:02 pm

Since, I have shown zero support of any kind for Trump, I will at least give him a minor credit.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... bc46ee7681

He hasn't raised the gas tax and he hasn't put forth a bill to do so, but at least he is acknowledging that we need actual revenue to do stuff.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by bryan » Fri May 05, 2017 2:08 pm

How genius would it be if some nasty version of the AHCA passes the Senate and Trump vetoes it?

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Mon May 15, 2017 9:21 am


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Riggerjack
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:33 pm

I read this at the archdruid report, and it reminded me of this thread.
They also arrive in an impressive range of contexts, because the way of thinking about things that divides them into mind and matter is remarkably pervasive in western societies, and pops up in the most extraordinary places. Think of the way that our mainstream religions portray God as the divine Mind ruling omnipotently over a universe of passive matter; that’s the ideal toward which our notions of mind and body strive, and predictably never reach. Think of the way that our entertainment media can always evoke a shudder of horror by imagining something we assign to the category of lifeless matter—a corpse in the case of zombie flicks, a machine in such tales as Stephen King’s Christine, or what have you—suddenly starts acting as though it possesses a mind.

For that matter, listen to the more frantic end of the rhetoric on the American left following the recent presidential election and you’ll hear the same theme echoing off the hills. The left likes to think of itself as the smart people, the educated people, the sensitive and thoughtful and reasonable people—in effect, the people of Mind. The hate speech that many of them direct toward their political opponents leans just as heavily on the notion that these latter are stupid, uneducated, insensitive, irrational, and so on—that is to say, the people of Matter. Part of the hysteria that followed Trump’s election, in turn, might best be described as the political equivalent of the instinctive reaction to a zombie flick: the walking dead have suddenly lurched out of their graves and stalked toward the ballot box, the body politic has rebelled against its self-proclaimed mind!
Yeah, "zombie horror" about sums up the well balanced reaction, I think.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by IlliniDave » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:05 pm

That made me chuckle. I've got to the point now where the hysteria (it exists on both sides, red and blue) just amuses me. Hopefully people will get it all out of their system in a year or three or four.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:33 pm

+1 to sideline chuckling

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Riggerjack
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Riggerjack » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:48 pm

Oh, I expect we can see renewed hysteria in about 3.5 years, however it goes.

I don't know why I'm surprised that the DNC so effectively turned any anger at the Bernie/Clinton thing into Trump horror.

Not that there isn't good reason for Trump horror...

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by IlliniDave » Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:36 am

I think I'm a lot less horrified by Trump than most (certainly doesn't mean I *like* him). If nothing else the near-insurrection by the professional bureaucracy (aka deep state) and media are cementing my belief that elected officials have power only insofar as they don't stray much from the script. At minimum the excessive outrage and end-of-the-world-ism are having a boy who cried wolf effect on me and I suspect the same is true for many others.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:52 am

The lack of horror increases mine.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by IlliniDave » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:05 am

Fair enough. I am fundamentally an optimist and I think that separates me from most here in terms of perspective. My innate skepticism leads me to look at many things with a predisposition towards "it's not as bad as it appears" undercurrent versus "it's even worse than it appears". I may rue that one day, but for the most part it serves me well.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:29 am

The difference on the horror-meter reminds me of the Clinton-Lewinsky thing. Many conservatives, especially religious ones, were horrified at the Lewinsky affair. They found that kind of impropriety repugnant--from her age to the public discussion of debris on her dress. I remember my father (who worked in DC at the time) wondering aloud why Clinton couldn't manage to keep it zipped or at least be discreet while he was in office. When stories circulated about the stuff going on in the White House and Oval Office, my father (and many others) thought the reputation of the office of the Presidency was permanently damaged.

Fast forward to Trump. His buffoonery, shoddy performance, and ignorance of the gravitas needed in his position horrifies many (ironically) Clinton supporters, who are also horrified that conservatives aren't outraged by his behavior. Democrats are now the ones declaring the Presidency permanently damaged.

In both cases, one side found/finds the other side's tolerance of the offensive behavior abhorrent. I suppose this confirms a lot of what Haidt has been saying. Different stroke outs for different folks, depending of the flavor of the offense.

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