Trump - Clown Genius

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
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Riggerjack
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Riggerjack »

1) False alarm?
2) Random criminal/substance-altered human walking about in daylight on school property brandishing weapon?
3) Garden variety school shooter psychotic-break- nothing to do with ethnic/religious make-up of student body?
4) Racial-religious hatred motivated psychotic-break shooter?
5) Racial-religious hatred motivated shooter not suffering from psychotic-break, just plain old stupid-evil?
6) Other_______?
You do tend to over think these things, don't you?

1) 90% is my guess
2) 9% but I imagine that depends on neighborhood.
3-5) less than 1%, and really, who cares about his motives at that point? While I'm sure there have been racially motivated school shooters, the big body counts go to frustrated geeks in or recently out of school. Fear the students, not random strangers and their differing politics.

For the most part, even the most extreme racists I've known don't actually DO anything, they just spout some stupid things when they get drunk enough, and DON'T do things, like go to certain parts of town.

I think it's for the best, like covering your mouth when you cough, no need to spread sickness. Self quarantine seems a reasonable solution to folks with unreasonable ideas.

But seriously, unless you are in prison, someone being a hard core racist still doesn't have much affect on anyone else. I wouldn't think it worth factoring in to a survival situation.

I would be thinking in terms of escape routes, hiding places, and barricades, rather than trying to piece together a motivation.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego »

ffj wrote: All five of those assholes had one thing in common so why is it controversial to hit the pause button and re-evaluate our immigration policy if we can detect a clear pattern?
It is true that they all had one thing in common. We need to be able to say that fact aloud in order to deal with the problem effectively. On the other hand we must recognize that we cannot eliminate risks. Not possible.

More diverse systems are more resilient. Limit diversity and you increase fragility. What's true for soil microbes is true for human societies. Homogeneity is easier to control in the short term but is vulnerable over the long haul. The melting pot may be frightening and frustrating but it makes us collectively stronger.

EMJ
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by EMJ »

ffj wrote: All five of those assholes had one thing in common so why is it controversial to hit the pause button and re-evaluate our immigration policy if we can detect a clear pattern?
Is not access to firearms the one thing they have in common and that makes them deadly?

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GandK
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by GandK »

EMJ wrote:
ffj wrote: All five of those assholes had one thing in common so why is it controversial to hit the pause button and re-evaluate our immigration policy if we can detect a clear pattern?
Is not access to firearms the one thing they have in common and that makes them deadly?
No. Everyone in this nation who is old enough to go to a friend's house theoretically has firearms access. We don't all go on shooting sprees. Also, removing that access would not have prevented either the backpack bomber or the guy who went on a stabbing rampage recently.

Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

This article does a good job of summing up the current political situation in a simple manner.

https://medium.com/@Chris_arnade/the-re ... .57aj5d7dy

Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

What is unfeasible about halting immigration until we have restructured our policies to reflect increased risk?
The first question is what about the current immigration laws are broken? And, what would be added to fix these deficiencies? This would not entail the problems at the Mexican border, as that is not where these people come through. Illegal immigration is different issue.

BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE »

ffj wrote:Integration into our way of life has to be part of the immigration process and if that isn't allowed to occur or people are sheltered from having to integrate, then problems occur.
ffj wrote:I would argue that when you are bringing large groups of people into the country, and subsidizing their existence, then you are effectively sabotaging their path to becoming an American.
brute completely agrees. though brute is quite pro-immigration, even of (hot) muslims, it can be done wrong and right. this isn't just true for immigration. brute has been on teams where 80% of the developers were switched out and replaced by newbies. no matter how good the team, this will lower productivity. essentially there's only so much capacity an existing/integrated individual has to teach to a newbie. too many newbies/immigrants, and that is capacity is overwhelmed.

brute's argument would be that muslim immigration on the US is very small compared to some of the EU countries. sweden with its handful of citizens can't take nearly the amount of refugees that the US could theoretically without losing their ability to integrate them. so the US really has very little to worry about in the integration sense. US muslims also seem to integrate much better - maybe because of the lower immigration rate. the lack of familiar culture might force them to integrate.
ffj wrote:If I thought removing firearms from our society would improve it, then I would advocate for that. I don't.
regardless of if it would improve society, it's impossible. that's like wondering if removing oceans would decrease child drownings. it's not going to happen.

brute is waiting for the day when they make a federal law to prohibit firearm use and make turning guns in mandatory, and 7 humans show up to hand in their guns. now there are 200 million ILLEGAL guns in the US. good job.

Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

ffj wrote:@Chad
I think those are two great starting questions should our government decide to investigate our immigration policy. My argument is that we need to have that enquiry in lieu of recent events.
That's kind of my point. You didn't point out any obvious flaws. Though, you may well have some and just didn't mention them, as I didn't ask you directly to state them. However, If there aren't obvious flaws in the laws right now , why do we need to stop immigration to do this? Or, does it even need doing?

To me this whole issue is very reminiscent of the "tough on crime" knee jerk reaction that has caused this country, that is supposed to be the beacon of liberty/freedom, to become the country with the highest percent of it's population in jail. These knee jerk reactions (e.g., Iraq War) end up causing other major issues. In the case of "tough on crime" it ends up being a major variable in keeping minorities poor (Yes, not the only variable and, yes, there are other issues internal to that community.).

When something happens the first reaction is always, "WE MUST DO SOMETHING!" But, a lot of times we don't really need to do anything, as shit happens.

I want to be clear. I haven't examined the immigration laws in detail, so there may well be some issues that need to be handled. However, I have yet to hear anyone point these out specifically, which makes me think it's a knee jerk reaction.

BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE »

ffj wrote:Uncomfortable?^^^
nah, brute is in his pyjamas. just kidding, brute doesn't own pyjamas.

brute's pretty agnostic about guns. they're fun, they don't really kill that many humans. brute doesn't own one, but he doesn't care if others do. he does not feel unsafe or threatened by humans open carrying ar-15s. criminals will always have guns, so banning them is useless. humans that let their 3 year old play with a loaded firearm need to ask themselves if the gun was really at fault.

bryan
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by bryan »

BRUTE wrote:criminals will always have guns, so banning them is useless.
Don't underestimate the power of defaults, human laziness. If all guns were illegal to own/sell the number of crimes committed using guns would drop _drastically_. That's not really a useless outcome, some would say.

BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE »

not sure that holds true. plenty of gun crime in countries with very strict gun laws. could be, of course, brute hasn't really studied it.

Kriegsspiel
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Kriegsspiel »

The fact is that guns are needed in order to hunt the incoming Muslims for sport. Which is going to be Trump's middle ground compromise straight out of Art Of The Deal.

BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE »

can't let the cops have all the fun with the blacks

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by ThisDinosaur »

BRUTE wrote: brute is waiting for the day when they make a federal law to prohibit firearm use and make turning guns in mandatory, and 7 humans show up to hand in their guns. now there are 200 million ILLEGAL guns in the US. good job.
Didn't Australia already do this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_buyback_program
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Australia

Didn't it work?

7Wannabe5
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Dragline said: But you would always err on the side of caution due to the assymetric negative consequences of being wrong.
Gotcha.
Riggerjack: Your point seems to be that 8 year olds are cute, and aren't terrorists. Yet every terrorist was at one point 8 years old, and probably cute.
BRUTE said: yea, fuck those guys, right?
In my potato-based economy we discriminate when investing our limited energies in the further development of human resources likely to help produce a yield towards the maintenance of a society capable of producing live symphonic performances in the future. I suggested the half-palsied 8 year old immigrant who was interested in learning about US history as a worthwhile citizen, not because he is currently cute, but because he is a tough little guy who swings his paralyzed limbs up and down the stairways in order to keep up with the other children, and he is an engaged learner. If I had to choose between hiring him to help with my potato harvest, and/or assisting with balancing my account books when he is few years older, or the white-ish (Greek heritage?) American guy in his late 50s, wearing a gold chain around his neck,convulsing in seizures on the ground on top of the litter gathered against the fence, while accusing the police of harassing him and somebody else of ripping him off for $20,000, and yelling "Help me, Dr. K. Help me!", wouldn't even take me a millisecond to come to a decision.

One thing I really don't get about the supposed policy of supposedly successful businessman Trump is that they don't make sense from the POV of even the most micro-employer seeking self-interest when investing in and leveraging labor. But, I guess that level of reality doesn't matter if all you are really engaged in is shuffling money around like a deck of cards and diverting the audience with barker banter.

BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE »

ThisDinosaur wrote:Didn't it work?
brute has heard it did. but 'straya != USA. not every policy is transferable to every culture. in all honesty, brute wouldn't care much. but he also doesn't think it'd make much of a positive impact.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by ThisDinosaur »

'straya=/='merica but most American pro-gun and anti-gun arguments are anecdotal and hypothetical, not data-driven. The closest evidence based argument I hear commonly is the one about Chicago and DC's strong gun laws being inversely correlated to gun-violence. Canada and Australia are as close to the USA culturally as any nations, but the people's relationship with firearms seems very different in all three. I have the sense that the lobbying strength of the NRA has something to do with this, but that may just be liberal nonsense I have absorbed.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego »

I have it on good authority from a friend who happens to be the shrewdest illegal immigrant I know that the USD/MXN will hit 1/24 if Hillary gets Trumpified on Monday. Regardless, I think the slow but steady peso devaluation is going to encourage more people across the border soon enough.

Except for these Haitians. They seem to be welcome in Mexico. The world is a strange place.

http://www.kpbs.org/news/2016/sep/23/me ... l-hospita/

Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

@ffj

Those articles are fine, but, again, neither even remotely looks at current specific policies and procedures. One suggests "enhanced" security background checks, but completely fail to mention specific current security checks and the limitations associated with those checks, or what "enhanced" even means. This is my problem with everyone panicking about immigration. There is a lack of substance.
And again, we need to heed the lessons France, Belgium, Germany, Sweden, and others have taught us about how to handle this situation.
Sure, lessons can be learned, but the US is far ahead of all these countries in handling this situation.

http://www.economist.com/news/united-st ... integrated

BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE »

for reference, according to Wikipedia the entire Syrian-American population is 154,560 humans. Germany has taken up ~1 million refugees (admittedly not all Syrian) in a 80 million population in 1 year.

so 1/80/year, vs. 154,000/350,000,000/150 years.
or: 0.0125 vs. 2.93e-6

at one point, difference in scale becomes difference in kind.

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