Global Population Issues

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
Noided

Re: Global Population Issues

Post by Noided »

Solvent wrote:Well yeah, in terms of "keeping the promises made to everyone by politicians" I don't think the problem can be "solved," but that's not unusual because politicians overpromise all the time. My "solution" is probably one favored by many others on these boards. People ought to just consume less. I don't know what retirement living standards are like in Portugal, but I know the sort of retirement incomes people target in Australia and find it pretty baffling that people can spend that much money. Especially when they often have their own home paid off. I suppose when you're older your medical bills get pretty terrible.
Portugal is a country stuck between 3rd and 1st world. That average net salary is ~1000€ per month so I assume the average pension is actually lower than that. Maybe this link will help put income and costs into perspective: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/ci ... ity=Lisbon

Lisbon is the capital and most expensive area of the country.

Obviously you can solve the short term problem of pensions by cutting benefits, but with the current system you will have to keep cutting purely because of demographic aspects. I would prefer for us to establish a system that could work long term (that obviously entails lower benefits vs what is distributed right now). Right now there is some talks on the issue but the 2 biggest parties just want to cover the problem with dirt, as usual in politics.

radamfi
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Re: Global Population Issues

Post by radamfi »

Aside from environmental and economic factors, Is it ethical to force people to live in a cruel world?

GandK
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Re: Global Population Issues

Post by GandK »

radamfi wrote:Is it ethical to force people to live in a cruel world?
?

Most humans are free to change most things about their environment to make their life better. The areas they are not free to change tend to be areas that, if changed, would make someone else's life worse.

I'm sorry the Brexit vote was not to your liking.

radamfi
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Re: Global Population Issues

Post by radamfi »

GandK wrote:Most humans are free to change most things about their environment to make their life better. The areas they are not free to change tend to be areas that, if changed, would make someone else's life worse.
I'm thinking of the horrible things that happen to human beings on a regular and routine basis. Such as heartbreak, disease, death, pain, crime, conflict etc. etc.

BRUTE
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Re: Global Population Issues

Post by BRUTE »

no, it isn't ethical. this is why having children is unethical. life is pain, and creating life inevitably creates more pain.

Dragline
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Re: Global Population Issues

Post by Dragline »

Schopenhauer is probably not a good role model for your own existence. (Most philosophers are not -- maybe Emerson an exception.) Except for Schop's dogs, which seemed to sustain him.

My life is not very painful. Not much at all. Not that it hasn't been at times -- that is true. But such things are temporal, unless you choose to carry them around and view the world through them. And I am not special. Someday, something bad may happen. But it is not happening right now.

I have a niece who lost a baby last year on July 4. Her baby was only a few months old, and just died one night in her sleep. She has been sad, but does not regret having had the child. And she is moving forward, slowly but surely. Her family life (husband and surviving daughter) is great. I have learned a lot from her.

radamfi
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Re: Global Population Issues

Post by radamfi »

Dragline wrote:My life is not very painful. Not much at all. Not that it hasn't been at times -- that is true. But such things are temporal, unless you choose to carry them around and view the world through them. And I am not special. Someday, something bad may happen. But it is not happening right now.
Just because your life isn't painful, doesn't mean that other people's lives aren't. Others endure unacceptable levels of pain in their life. Physical pain, mental pain or both at the same time. So it is unethical to have children as it is impossible to guarantee that the child will not experience pain.

RealPerson
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Re: Global Population Issues

Post by RealPerson »

Dragline wrote:
GandK wrote:
enigmaT120 wrote:Nah, that's why the Japanese are inventing so many of those cool robots.
I thought they were doing that for sex.
Have you ever experienced a high-tech Japanese toilet? Pretty soon they will be able to fulfill all of your sexual and eldercare needs.

But be careful if you push the wrong button . . . :lol:
That is so true...the wrong button part, that is. In Japan I just had to try out these toilet seats. Problem is the buttons have either little incomprehensible symbols or Japanese text. Either way, you push the button and see what happens. Quite a surreal experience. The toilet seats did not satisfy any sexual needs :( . Maybe I went to the bathroom in the wrong places?

Dragline
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Re: Global Population Issues

Post by Dragline »

radamfi wrote: Just because your life isn't painful, doesn't mean that other people's lives aren't. Others endure unacceptable levels of pain in their life. Physical pain, mental pain or both at the same time. So it is unethical to have children as it is impossible to guarantee that the child will not experience pain.
You sound like someone who is more interested in being "right" than actually achieving any level of happiness or personal fulfillment and have adopted some kind of rigid philosophy to allow you to preserve your world-view at all costs, even at the expense of your own personal fulfillment.

So be it, but recognize that there are consequences to those choices, two of which are: (1) you will attract like-minded individuals and you will all sit around talking about how miserable everything is, and make yourselves feel more miserable in the process; (2) people who see more to life will decide that it is not worth wasting their time and energy dealing with you or debating your world-view. (The applicable adage is "Don't try to teach a pig to sing: it wastes your time and annoys the pig.") You will find many of the latter people here, especially in the journals.

BTW, "impossible to guarantee" is a pretty meaningless statement since it applies to virtually anything that is not trivial, and your definition/use of "unacceptable" and "unethical" seem so subjective such that they are also effectively just meaningless labels. Hyperbole does not equal meaningful discourse, but is generally the province of trolls. But if you add some Shakespeare to your repetoire, it will probably sound more insightful. I would suggest starting with Act V, Scene V of Macbeth.

radamfi
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Re: Global Population Issues

Post by radamfi »

There is little or no downside to not having children. Unusually, the most environmentally friendly option and the most ethical option is also the easiest option. You don't have to go through the struggle of child rearing and the annoyance of listening to screaming kids for years. Maybe pre-industrial revolution children would be an asset that you could use to plough the fields etc. but now they are a financial burden. So in the 21st century, by not having children you can retire earlier and have the moral high ground at the same time.

Chad
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Re: Global Population Issues

Post by Chad »

radamfi wrote:There is little or no downside to not having children.
Not entirely true. When you are old and feeble minded you won't have an advocate/crutch to lean on. This is a much bigger downside than most think. I should note, that I do not have kids and don't plan too.

radamfi
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Re: Global Population Issues

Post by radamfi »

Chad wrote:Not entirely true. When you are old and feeble minded you won't have an advocate/crutch to lean on. This is a much bigger downside than most think. I should note, that I do not have kids and don't plan too.
You only get that if your child bothers to visit or even talk to you. It is possible to be friends with people who you aren't related to.

BRUTE
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Re: Global Population Issues

Post by BRUTE »

Dragline wrote:You sound like someone who is more interested in being "right" than actually achieving any level of happiness or personal fulfillment and have adopted some kind of rigid philosophy to allow you to preserve your world-view at all costs, even at the expense of your own personal fulfillment.

So be it, but recognize that there are consequences to those choices, two of which are: (1) you will attract like-minded individuals and you will all sit around talking about how miserable everything is, and make yourselves feel more miserable in the process; (2) people who see more to life will decide that it is not worth wasting their time and energy dealing with you or debating your world-view.
Dragline is implying that it's a choice. also, people who are wrong will not want to hang out with radamfi? oh no.

Chad
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Re: Global Population Issues

Post by Chad »

radamfi wrote:
Chad wrote:Not entirely true. When you are old and feeble minded you won't have an advocate/crutch to lean on. This is a much bigger downside than most think. I should note, that I do not have kids and don't plan too.
You only get that if your child bothers to visit or even talk to you. It is possible to be friends with people who you aren't related to.
You are reaching, but I'm not going into it.

enigmaT120
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Re: Global Population Issues

Post by enigmaT120 »

BRUTE wrote:no, it isn't ethical. this is why having children is unethical. life is pain, and creating life inevitably creates more pain.
Not if you renounce desire.

Edit: there, I added the quote to which I was responding. I didn't notice you guys were a page ahead of me already!
Last edited by enigmaT120 on Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.


jacob
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Re: Global Population Issues

Post by jacob »

@vezkor - Somehow I think I read that piece some time ago. Note that marginal production prices for all companies are very low compared to potash prices. Previously prices have been supported by a cartel. No longer the case. So we're pretty much waiting either for them to buy up each other, shut down a ton of capacity or farmer's to get rich enough from rising food prices to pour some more fertilizer on their fields.

cmonkey
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Re: Global Population Issues

Post by cmonkey »

jacob wrote: shut down a ton of capacity
Not sure if this is the start or just continuing, but seems I bought at the right time.

mathiverse
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Re: Global Population Issues

Post by mathiverse »

jacob wrote:
Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:24 pm
In Europe and Japan which are some of the most civilized areas in the world (by civilized I mean eusocial in that culture or institutions strongly regulate behavior), the solution is mass unemployment and economic stagnation. I'd put Russia in this category as well, although, also see the US. The solution here is not to be the dumbass left with lots of personal debt and to build strong family ties or other ties when the gov can no longer afford the support. Also, population densities are really really high here, but people are "civilized/informed" enough to deal with epidemics, hopefully.
Well... Now we know. :lol:

EDIT: For the record, I mean now we know that the US isn't "civilized/informed" to deal with the epidemic. (But I guess rereading what I quoted it was saying Europe and Japan were rather civilized/informed rather than the US, so my bad on the misinterpretation. :oops: )
Last edited by mathiverse on Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jacob
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Re: Global Population Issues

Post by jacob »


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