Global Population Issues

[workathome]

I'm pretty sure breeding and poverty are already associated. Planned Parenthood was originally an attempt to get the poor to stop breeding so much.

[jacob]

Words like breeder and breeding are fighting words and don't really add to the argument as much as they risk derailing it. I hate to be PC but there's no reason that I can see to use them.

[Dragline]

Agreed. But I have to say that I'm a proud breeder since 1995. (Sound like bumper sticker material -- much better than back window stick figures.)

Back in the day (or at least my day), this was just a code word that my gay friends would use to describe straight people.

[workathome]

Sorry, I was using the term sardonically. Abortion clinics sort of give me the heebie-jeebies now.

[henrik]

Foreign aid to Africa (over the last 30-50 years) has widely been pronounced a colossal failure. Is it really that far of a stretch to say that this aid also leads to an increase in population?

The idea that foreign aid might cause problems rather than improve things is indeed widely discussed and plausible. However, I don't see any connection between this and the global food production vs global population increase issue that you'e discussing. Would you care to explain?

[theanimal]

Henrik- The food that is sent is excess. Supporting areas that could not otherwise support themselves leads to unsustainability and a population that is larger than the land can support. In theory, if no aid was sent, the population would go up and down in line with the resources available.


The more I look into issues like this, the more apparent it is that ERE lifestyle is the optimal solution. As others have stated, its very difficult to change government or the majority, so the best way is to act as an individual and lead by example.

[jacob]

@theanimal - In my "youth" (age 24-29 or so) I spent a lot of time looking into exactly these kinds of issues and came to the same conclusions. More importantly, I decided to start a blog about that conclusion

My point is, that in all modesty, that there's a reason why ERE is the optimal(*) solution to these issues

(*) I'd love to hear about a better solution. If there is one, I haven't found it.

[7Wannabe5]

RiggerJack said: 7 billion people, 269k square miles=26,022 people per square mile. 41 per acre. What kind of suburbs pack 41 people per acre? There are 3 districts in LA that have a higher population density, but most of LA is way more spread out than that.

Right. Each human family of average size 3.8 people would fit on approximately 1/10th of an acre lot. Obviously, this is not how a real city or suburb is laid out because there is no space allotted for businesses, parks, schools, highways, sewage plant etc. etc. It's just a model meant to cause people to question their assumptions about the current density of human population. Another one I like because I camp fairly frequently is that there is about 1/4 acre of national park land in the United States for each citizen.

Now, I've gardened, but never using permaculture methods. The idea that you could feed 41 people off of an acre seems unrealistic at best.

According to the highly experienced and sensible-sounding (not like me-lol), Brett Markham, author of "Mini-Farming: Self-Sufficiency on 1/4 Acre, using modern bio-intensive/perma-culture methods,

Ultimately, for total food self-sufficiency, you will need about 700 square feet per person.

= .016 acres. Of course, the 700 square ft. is planted bed area not taking needed pathways and composting areas into consideration but 41 people/acre would be about right.

What we need, is to associate breeding and poverty. Nothing gets uncool faster than the behaviors of the poor. Hell, people even quit smoking when it got associated with poverty. I'm just sayin'.

Damn that Angelina Jolie! Interesting recent trend seems to be associating very early parenthood with poverty and very late parenthood with wealth. However, the costs of fertility vacations to South American or Eastern European countries to procure fresh eggs are going way down and you can "adopt" a frozen embryo for less than $5000 so maybe it will soon go out of style.

However, I see no end soon to the trend that inspired the publication of "Metro Pet" magazine. There are 83.3 million dogs being well fed in the United States currently and a total of 57 million children in Bangladesh, many of whom are not being well-fed. Even though it is true that many or most pet owners have their dogs "fixed", 3x as many pet dogs are being fed in the United States than in 1979 whereas the number of children in the United States has only increased from 64.1 million to 74.3 million in the same 25 years. So, dogs plus kids fed in 1979 = 92 million and dogs plus kids fed in 2014 = 157.6 million with the clear and overwhelming percentage of increase in food waste going to excess dog breeding as opposed to human breeding. Just sayin' ; )

[Riggerjack]

There are 83.3 million dogs being well fed in the United States currently and a total of 57 million children in Bangladesh, many of whom are not being well-fed. Even though it is true that many or most pet owners have their dogs "fixed", 3x as many pet dogs are being fed in the United States than in 1979 whereas the number of children in the United States has only increased from 64.1 million to 74.3 million in the same 25 years. So, dogs plus kids fed in 1979 = 92 million and dogs plus kids fed in 2014 = 157.6 million with the clear and overwhelming percentage of increase in food waste going to excess dog breeding as opposed to human breeding.

Thank you. That made my day!

[jacob]

Yup that! If the funding going to the American (don't even need to include Euroland) pet industry was diverted towards world hunger, the problem would pretty much be solved. Solving world hunger would be very very easy! It's just that ... anyone who can afford it don't really care(*)

Humans, what can I say?

Not that it's not the case that I, in fact, do have a pet and also don't send funding to hungry people. Hypocritical priorities

(*) If you really want to bang your head against the wall try comparing what the funding spent on the various QE bailouts could have bought if it had been spent solving real world problems instead of on financial assets. It's truly mind-blowing; to the degree that sensitive individuals might feel quite depressed.

[Dragline]

It sounds like we just need to export the fat western dogs we've bred to feed the starving humans elsewhere.

Except for our fat chihuahua of course. She's special.

I feed the fat chihuahua and some of the hungry people in other countries. As I've repeatedly said: "DO BOTH!"

[Ego]

Immediate gratification vs. long-term thinking applies here. How do we ethically justify minimizing the immediate suffering while feeding much greater future suffering?

This was written back in the 1990s (I believe) and does a good job of outlining both side of the argument. The problems remain the same albeit with greater numbers of people.

http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/ ... unger.html

Also, I prefer the unfiltered version of Rigger because he tells it like he's experienced it (as opposed to having read it somewhere), which is an extremely valuable commodity.

[Ego]

It sounds like we just need to export the fat western dogs we've bred to feed the starving humans elsewhere.

Except for our fat chihuahua of course. She's special.

I feed the fat chihuahua and some of the hungry people in other countries. As I've repeatedly said: "DO BOTH!"

There are times when the "do both" advice sounds a lot like "have your cake and eat it too", or have your chihuahua and eat it too.

[Riggerjack]

So, have we turned 180 degrees, from:
"the problem is already too big to solve."
to:
"Fix your pets, and send dog food money to feed people"?

For what it's worth, I like my dog more than most people, and she seems to feel the same way. Although, that may say more about me than her.

Also, I prefer the unfiltered version of Rigger because he tells it like he's experienced it (as opposed to having read it somewhere), which is an extremely valuable commodity.

Thank you.

Although, I should point out, you have really only met the "kinder, gentler, riggerjack". I really do try to keep my words here civil, though direct enough to make my point.

My last boss marked me down on my review for "communicating too effectively." Different venues require different etiquette, and I am not very good at matching them up right... particularly after a few beers, as the mods can verify.

[jacob]

Technologically, most problems can be solved. For example, it's within our technological capability to stop all wars. Just stop pulling the trigger.

However, politically, culturally, and economically, most problems are practically impossible to solve.

[workathome]

If only we had some kind of shrink ray, we could just decrease everyone by 50% and - boom - double the food supply!

[7Wannabe5]

Here are some other possibilities:

http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/ind ... at_19.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvn79E40VSc

Also, I am wondering if it is possible to harness my sister's 3 Australian Cattle dogs to a small plow so they can earn their keep? I am still debating whether or not to dig my new garden (might sheet mulch instead or both) but if I do, one advantage of feeding a couple human kids for a couple decades (and not even sending them off to work at the pickle factory at age 6!) is that occasionally you can call in the chips.

[Dragline]

Also, I am wondering if it is possible to harness my sister's 3 Australian Cattle dogs to a small plow so they can earn their keep? I am still debating whether or not to dig my new garden (might sheet mulch instead or both) but if I do, one advantage of feeding a couple human kids for a couple decades (and not even sending them off to work at the pickle factory at age 6!) is that occasionally you can call in the chips.

Man, those dogs would be pissed. They don't even like being on a lead, because their herding instinct is so strong they have to constantly circle whatever group of people or animals they are with.

We had one who thought I was another dog and everyone else in the family was livestock. In addition to herding everyone together, she would bring us presents like squirrel heads and live possums. Very smart dog, but also very neurotic. But with three of them, you could herd several hundred cows or sheep quite easily.

On the other hand, our chihuahua is as dumb as a stump, but would be quite happy pull a plow if she could and you put a picture of another non-chihuahua dog in front of her.

[7Wannabe5]

Dragline said: But with three of them, you could herd several hundred cows or sheep quite easily.

I can believe it. Right now their job is herding all the geese who are gathered on a fenced field by an abandoned industrial plant. The topic of this thread is rather ironic to me in some ways since I live in a city that is being depopulated and I am surrounded by the decay of structures that humans once made use of and maintained. Similar but different than the feeling I get when camping in the Upper Peninsula... "In the pines, in the pines, where the sun never shines, I will shiver the whole night through."

[Ego]

Solution Aversion (bias)

http://today.duke.edu/2014/11/solutionaversion

"We argue that the political divide over many issues is just that, it’s political," Campbell said. "These divides are not explained by just one party being more anti-science, but the fact that in general people deny facts that threaten their ideologies, left, right or center."