Bundy Ranch Standoff

[Seneca]

A PDF of the BLM’s document, “Regional Mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar energy Zone: Technical Note 444,” produced by the BLM in March, can be found online.

Technical Note 444 states that the “’Regional Mitigation Strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone’ recommends a strategy for compensating for certain unavoidable impacts that are expected from the development of the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone (SEZ) in southern Nevada.”

Technical Note 444 states: “The resource values found in the Gold Butte ACEC are threatened by: unauthorized activities, including off-road vehicle use, illegal dumping, and trespass livestock grazing; wildfire; and weed infestation.” (Emphasis added.)

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/ ... TN_444.pdf

Since pulled but was from the BLM site: http://archive.today/nvlzr - “Non-Governmental Organizations have expressed concern that the regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone utilizes Gold Butte as the location for offsite mitigation for impacts from solar development, and that those restoration activities are not durable with the presence of trespass cattle.”

The more you dig, the more nasty this situation is. You can find plenty of 2012 dated material, outside the rightwing news sites, talking about the conflicts of interest with Harry Reid, his son and this solar deal.

[Chad]

When was this land declared federal land?

[workathome]

Wow! Good digging Seneca. That's downright shady.

[Seneca]

My reading of the mitigation report, for every acre of land they stop grazing in Gold Butte, they can destroy an acre for the solar panels. Gold Butte is the number one candidate.

Pointing guns at a rancher and his family, and rustling his cattle, would be the cheapest of the remediation options listed in the report.

This report also answers Chad's request in a way, and also may shed light on the problem with the grazing fees, the BLM closed the area to grazing from 1998 on:

The Gold Butte ACEC was established in the 1998 BLM Las Vegas Resource Management Plan (RMP). It has an area of approximately 350,000 acres (1416 km2). The primary resource values listed in the RMP are:
• Cultural and historic resources
• Scenic values
• Wildlife habitat
• Special status species habitat
• Botanical resources

The Las Vegas RMP also specifies the resource constraints for the Gold Butte ACEC, which include:
• Closed to mineral entry, sale, leasing, except for fluid minerals under certain circumstances
• Closed to grazing
• Managed for wild burros at an Appropriate Management Level of 98 animals....

So, why did the BLM pull the Cliff's notes version of this stuff from their site recently, and further, why are they saying they took Bundy's cattle for unpaid fees when you haven't been able to pay a fee to graze Gold Butte since '98?

[Chad]

So, why did the BLM pull the Cliff's notes version of this stuff from their site recently, and further, why are they saying they took Bundy's cattle for unpaid fees when you haven't been able to pay a fee to graze Gold Butte since '98?

Requiring him to pay a fee could easily just be a way to ensure any future violators on any federal land, not just this spot, couldn't point to past violators who weren't charged. Why BLM pulled their notes is valid question. The fee question isn't.

[Seneca]

Requiring him to pay a fee could easily just be a way to ensure any future violators on any federal land, not just this spot, couldn't point to past violators who weren't charged.

For the last 16 years grazing has been prohibited, fee or no fee.

I wonder what the unpaid fees are? Use of other lands? Fees in Gold Butte from prior to '98? Fines? Red Herring?

Interesting a guy offering the cheapest way for Sen Reid's son's company to get permission to destroy Dry Creek desert tortoise habitat is the one that is the example, isn't it?

[George the original one]

So, why did the BLM pull the Cliff's notes version of this stuff from their site recently, and further, why are they saying they took Bundy's cattle for unpaid fees when you haven't been able to pay a fee to graze Gold Butte since '98?

Bundy hasn't paid any grazing fees since 1994, way before the Gold Butte thing.

[Seneca]

So, why did the BLM pull the Cliff's notes version of this stuff from their site recently, and further, why are they saying they took Bundy's cattle for unpaid fees when you haven't been able to pay a fee to graze Gold Butte since '98?

Bundy hasn't paid any grazing fees since 1989, way before the Gold Butte thing.

I could not easily find better information than on the very biased sites, but the desert tortoise has been causing use restrictions for a long time in this area.

One of the links above says he was having problems over the desert tortoise in '93.

You can flat out just pay a high fee to use protected lands according to these reports, I wonder if that is where this million dollar number is from?

[Felix]

Why defend the right of a wealthy cattle rancher to free use of government land? These 300k to 1.2 million (to a single recipient) are taxpayer money. That's quite a serious welfare program.

Just when I was giving up on you guys. Welcome to the collective, comrades.

[JohnnyH]

From wikipediapage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff

I'm coming to the conclusion the fees (oh lordy the feeeeees!) are a red herring to paint this guy as some kind of cheat.
"Bundy owns land previously considered base property and paid AUM animal unit permit fees prior to 1993 for grazing on the nearby Bunkerville Allotment area. Bundy asserts that the terms of land use changes in 1993 reduced his allowed cattle by 90%, capping it to about 150 animals."

"They paid for cattle grazing again beginning in 1973 and ending in 1993,[7] when the last grazing fees were paid by Bundy for his last grazing application for 1 December 1992 through 28 February 1993.[7] On 24 January 1994, the BLM delivered a Proposed Decision Order to Remove and Demand for Payment to Bundy by placing it on the dashboard of Bundy's vehicle while he was in the vehicle.[7]"

So he paid all his fees for decades to BLM... Then BLM arbitrarily edicted 90% reduction in cattle. Then after that permit they flat out cancelled his permit. He basically got handed an order saying your ranching legacy is over, then they get mad for not paying the invoices (that he never got)? Some kind of bizarre wash-sale, heads I win tails you lose fed logic.

More:
"Non-governmental organizations regional offsite-mitigation strategies are also delayed for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone,[19] and a matching $400,000 grant from the Walton Family Foundation to restore habitat for the Southwest Willow Flycatcher along the Virgin River is delayed on the condition that trespass cattle are removed by Cliven Bundy.[20]"
Yikes... I imagine cash strapped BLM district is absolutely drooling over this $400k.

Hundreds of cattle were killed? Shouldn't be too hard to find hundreds of dead cattle lying in the desert.

The report I read is now buried under the photo proof of the handful shot. The allegations were dozens were ran to exhaustion by helicopters (this is well known to happen)... It is known that 389 had been rounded up, and "about 300"" were collected at the release.

Also, it will be incredibly difficult (and expensive) to locate dead cattle.
"...just before the roundup got underway, a survey conducted by helicopter counted 908 head of cattle scattered across roughly 1,200 square miles of remote mountains and desert managed by the Bureau of Land Management and the National Park Service."[18]

What is a "militarized" police force? Seriously.

Ah, come on don't play that.
http://garden.warn-radio.com/wp-content ... 76x564.png
(Not citing the website, just a google image search)

The guy that I listed is an idiot, period. Anybody that would glory in his wife and children's death to defend a rancher over cattle rights shouldn't have been allowed to marry or reproduce.

I wouldn't have done it, but it might have worked (stopped a slaughter)... The real problem and issue is the fact that the BLM brought this much potential violence to the table. The governor of Nevada agrees, "No cow justifies the atmosphere of intimidation which currently exists nor the limitation of constitutional rights that are sacred to all Nevadans. The BLM needs to reconsider its approach to this matter and act accordingly."

I had a conversation recently where I expressed my opinion that everyone should have to observe at least two weeks each the police department, fire department, ambulance service, the emergency room, and the local jail. Then perhaps the anarchy some long for might be tempered just a bit.

I've worked 2/4 of those (and been to jail ) so I feel qualified to have an opinion. If by anarchy you mean self-reliance then sign me up... Most of what I did in those positions I felt promoted an unhealthy reliance on government, protecting and strengthening a backwards status-quo. Ideally IMO, most of the above should be downsized, restructured, re-prioritized, re-thought.

Why defend the right of a wealthy cattle rancher to free use of government land? These 300k to 1.2 million (to a single recipient) are taxpayer money. That's quite a serious welfare program.

Just when I was giving up on you guys. Welcome to the collective, comrades.

Those numbers are the ridiculous BLM figures... Actually [current] grazing fees are $1.35 per head per month. So maybe, $10,000/yr on his original 900 head... Something tells me he would be paying this if he was allowed to.

Also, come out to Nevada sometime... It is the emptiest thing you've ever seen. NV cattle rancher is a hard life and I would be legitimately surprised if he was truly wealthy.

[Seneca]

I had a conversation recently where I expressed my opinion that everyone should have to observe at least two weeks each the police department, fire department, ambulance service, the emergency room, and the local jail. Then perhaps the anarchy some long for might be tempered just a bit.

We are not talking about anarchy. Battles over the use of western public lands for grazing have been going on longer than we've had states out here. As Johnny alluded to, there are still people arguing over the standing, zoning and ownership afforded from Spanish land grants.

[Seneca]

From wikipediapage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff

I'm coming to the conclusion the fees (oh lordy the feeeeees!) are a red hearing to paint this guy as some kind of cheat.

The more I read, the more it seems to me this is what is happening. There is so much right and left bullshit to wade through though.

I think the Dry Creek SEZ and the financial interests of Sen Reid are what brought the guns out, but it's obviously been slow boiling for a long time prior, and surely the BLM didn't need much convincing...

[JohnnyH]

There is so much right and left bullshit to wade through though.

So much this... I'm not sure I can take another partisan blog today.

I can definitely say the web page designs of left wing pages is exponentially better than the right wing... I might have a seizure if I see another flashing Gadsden flag.

[Spartan_Warrior]

There is so much right and left bullshit to wade through though.

So much this... I'm not sure I can take another partisan blog today.

x2.

[Felix]

From what I've read 300k is Bundy's own number that he accepts as the fees he didn't pay even though he'd be capable to do so. The 1.2 million is the BLM's number. If you are able to pay 300k, you're not poor, at least.

Independent from the actual amount of the fees, I still try to understand why he should have the right to free land from the government to grow his cattle business on.

[Seneca]

I live about 5mi from the start of a big chunk of open range.

Come on out. You can oogle all the swanky rich rancher homes.

[JohnnyH]

From what I've read 300k is Bundy's own number that he accepts as the fees he didn't pay even though he'd be capable to do so. The 1.2 million is the BLM's number. If you are able to pay 300k, you're not poor, at least.

Right, I think I remember reading that... Also (from wiki) "pay damages to the United States in the amount of $200 per day per head for any remaining livestock on the allotment after November 30, 1998." That's $180,000 PER DAY in fines. He offered to pay the grazing fees to the county, which to me suggests he attempted to pay the BLM and was turned away.

This is a desperate man trying to protect his way of life... Calls of welfare and cheat are offensively off, IMO.

[jennypenny]

I won't list all of what I've gathered today (a lot of it off the record). Here's my interpretation...

Bundy doesn't like the BLM (who does out there), didn't like the ever-increasing rules, and tried to buck the system in typical cowboy (read: American) fashion and thumb his nose at the BLM and dare them to come after him. He had the support of the local community and many in state and local government, so I can see where he thought he would be ok.

I think the mistake came when he, and probably state and local officials, didn't realize until it was too late that the feds wanted him off the land permanently because they had other plans for the site. (enter Reid) Bundy wasn't savvy enough to see that he was giving them the cause they needed to clear him off of the land. They aren't interested in having Bundy pay his fines anymore, and he's doesn't have much negotiating power.

I think the only resolution will be if the state government decides to put its full weight behind Bundy, either by negotiating a reduced fine and reinstating his priviledges, or negotiating a financial settlement that Bundy would accept to walk away from it all.

[Seneca]

Very well put, JP.

More concise, factual and less biased than anything I've read at any media outlet...or .gov site.

[Felix]

He offered to pay the grazing fees to the county, which to me suggests he attempted to pay the BLM and was turned away.

This is a desperate man trying to protect his way of life... Calls of welfare and cheat are offensively off, IMO.

The official number the BLM wants is 1.2 Million, that would not be the case if he had to pay 180k a day since 98.

Hm. From what I see he doesn't recognize the BLM and the federal government as legitimate, which is the leg he seems to be standing on legally, which is none at all. He wanted to pay the fees to the "souvereign state of Nevada". He has been using government land without paying on that "I do what I want." basis.

Now he tries to push this through violently with his private army of infowarriors.

I understand that the government imposing fees for land use makes his life difficult (but seemingly not difficult enough that he doesn't have the 300k these fees would have cost), and I can understand why people in the area generally hate the BLM for wanting fees now, being used to free government land available for grazing as the basis of their livelihood.

The way of life of a cattle rancher has an all-American appeal, I get that, but getting free land to use is a subsidy, I don't see how that is not the case.

The funny thing is that I'm usually the one making the case that just cutting people off their public lifeline is a rotten thing to do. I see parallels here to Polanyi's description of the political beginnings of modern capitalism in The Great Transformation. There the government changed hunting laws and made hunting in government land illegal and refenced farm lands, destroying people's access to public resources for self-sufficient living, forcing them, now being poor, to move to the city to work in factories at shitty conditions. Here, it also seems that the idea is to throw off cattle ranchers to make room for modern industries like solar energy production (I haven't really looked at this in detail, this might be conspiracy territory).

Me, I'm not against the idea of free government land, more people should have access to public resources, but I am for a welfare state and even for a basic income.

It's just strange for me to see free-market libertarians make my case for once.

Either way, by now it seems Bundy has done everything he could to make the case for the feds for being thrown off the land. Maybe if a tea party politician sees an opportunity here, Bundy has some sort of chance, but I would not count on it.