Bundy Ranch Standoff

[jennypenny]

Felix, try looking at it another way. People are allowed to fish in waters right offshore, even though technically they are sovereign waters. Companies dig for oil and other resources on federal property as well. There are rules and fees and licenses involved, but there is frequently a blurring of the lines between public and private property rights in the US. I think part of the reason people in the US don't object to the government 'owning' so much land is because there is an understanding that it will still be available to citizens for various purposes, including making a living.

I still don't like the way the feds are handling the situation. It was a dangerous and unnecessary show of force. I find it ironic that the feds are constantly saying that they don't have the resources to look for criminals trafficking people and narcotics along the southern border, but then suddenly have the resources to waste scouring the desert for felonious cattle.

[workathome]

Is Reid's son's company publicly traded?

[Riggerjack]

Legally speaking, I don't think Bundy has a leg to stand on, but when 200+ feds show up, out west, this is going to happen.

We get the regular SWAT no-knock, raids like everyone else, but those are quick, surprise attacks. Resistance is crushed, and casualties are wisked away. Total SWAT presence is usually high single digits. But when it gets big, it gets slow. 20 guys can get somewhere, get the job done, and get out, 200 guys requires a parking plan in the logistics package.

Now, I can't help thinking, "If I were in charge of this BLM roundup, I'd wait until Bundy rounded up his cattle, and seize them then, with 4 agents, no SWAT guys. Unless cattle were an excuse, and not the point at all."

And there's lots of folks who actually know the timelines of what caused Waco and Ruby ridge out here. There is alot of anger at the feds. Lots of folks who figure 200+ feds aren't leaving until the women and children are dead.

So, this was a big show of force, in the actual heart of nowhere (I went to school near there, my senior year.). In 2 red states. Huh, if this were an election year... I'd have to call this a polarizing political stunt.

So, tell me. Did this fiasco make you lean left, or right? I think for most folks, leaning left, away from the gun toting protesters, and for those already leaning right, this just made them lean further. I think the dividing line was way to the right of center on this one. That would make this successful political theater.

[Chad]

This is along my line of thinking. http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2 ... owboy-hats

[Chad]

Me, I'm not against the idea of free government land, more people should have access to public resources, but I am for a welfare state and even for a basic income.

It's just strange for me to see free-market libertarians make my case for once.

Except this isn't welfare for the poor.

[jennypenny]

So, this was a big show of force, in the actual heart of nowhere (I went to school near there, my senior year.). In 2 red states. Huh, if this were an election year... I'd have to call this a polarizing political stunt.

So, tell me. Did this fiasco make you lean left, or right? I think for most folks, leaning left, away from the gun toting protesters, and for those already leaning right, this just made them lean further. I think the dividing line was way to the right of center on this one. That would make this successful political theater.

Ugh, I think you nailed it. I didn't even think of that.

Makes you wonder what's next, doesn't it?

[Chad]

So, this was a big show of force, in the actual heart of nowhere (I went to school near there, my senior year.). In 2 red states. Huh, if this were an election year... I'd have to call this a polarizing political stunt.

So, tell me. Did this fiasco make you lean left, or right? I think for most folks, leaning left, away from the gun toting protesters, and for those already leaning right, this just made them lean further. I think the dividing line was way to the right of center on this one. That would make this successful political theater.

Ugh, I think you nailed it. I didn't even think of that.

Makes you wonder what's next, doesn't it?

How is this a positive for the Democrats? This seems to be getting more negative publicity than positive and I don't watch Fox News at all. It might be a positive for Reid's family, but that hardly helps the Democrats.

[Seneca]

This is along my line of thinking. http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2 ... owboy-hats

Assuming this reporter did a good job with his research, as I suspected, Bundy cannot pay his fees. What the government is calling fees are in fact fines they are trying to collect after Bundy had the misfortune of the BLM showing up with so-called environmentalists who wanted to close his land, apparently some of the nicest in the area, for environmental preservation. He was mostly winning against this until Sen Reid's corrupt self wanted his land for his own purposes and profit.

The liberal/city slicker media does not understand how grazing rights work, but they do understand welfare arguments, and this branding is working well to demonize Bundy. Further, the media is highly antagonistic of any alternate lifestyle that involves rugged individuals and guns.

It is political theater, but I don't think the DNC is happy about it. No matter what you think of Bundy, Sen Reid is not looking good here...but this is mostly being glossed over with the personal attacks.

[Spartan_Warrior]

Yeah, like I said, to date I have yet to see a single article about this on Yahoo! News which is supposedly left-leaning. If anything the leftists seem like they have something to hide, which only makes the whole conspiracy theory angles more plausible to me.

[Riggerjack]

When I said political theater, you have to work with some basic assumptions :

30% of voters will vote left, regardless of anything on the news in the next 7 months.

The same applies to the right.

So no professional cares about anything but the middle 40%. How this group splits is the difference between winning and losing.

Moving the central herd is the goal of every political entity,at all times.

This has been a show with guns, and feds and bad traffic. The guys with guns are being cast in the role of conspiracy theorists, with guns! Maybe they're right, I don't know. What I see is a long list of negative images, associated with right wing. Then a restrained response from the feds, all the while beating the drum that this guy is a welfare deadbeat, who won't pay the fees they say he owes.

How is that not good for the pro government party, again?

[Riggerjack]

Now, I could be wrong. Maybe 200+ feds was the necessary force for gathering cattle. But my money would be on someone getting told to provoke a scene.

[Seneca]

Now, I could be wrong. Maybe 200+ feds was the necessary force for gathering cattle. But my money would be on someone getting told to provoke a scene.

The BLM has been trying to throw this guy out for over 20 years, they knew he wasn't going to simply agree if there were a few agents on his porch.

I think they wanted to show overwhelming force to get Bundy to finally bow to them and leave his ancestral way of life. Hopefully without a gun fight.

[Chad]

When I said political theater, you have to work with some basic assumptions :

30% of voters will vote left, regardless of anything on the news in the next 7 months.

The same applies to the right.

So no professional cares about anything but the middle 40%. How this group splits is the difference between winning and losing.

That's not true at all. The parties cater to their extremes. If the parties actually cared about the middle we wouldn't have the Republicans being so heavily influenced by the Tea Party. All anyone in political parties talks about is "getting the base out."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/2 ... rs-to-vote#

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/01/us/po ... oters.html

http://www.minnpost.com/political-agend ... se-not-gop

Not that they don't throw a bone to the middle, but they are secondary to the base.

[Chad]

Now, I could be wrong. Maybe 200+ feds was the necessary force for gathering cattle. But my money would be on someone getting told to provoke a scene.

I think they wanted to show overwhelming force to get Bundy to finally bow to them and leave his ancestral way of life. Hopefully without a gun fight.

Yeah, I think they went with overwhelming force to try and do this without incident. They meet more resistance than expected and could either bash heads or walk away. They walked away as they have the advantage in the long-term.

...ancestral way of life.

Does anyone think this matters?

[Seneca]

...ancestral way of life.

Does anyone think this matters?

It would seem to me the government does, since they are talking about unpaid grazing fees rather than the fact they have made it illegal for Bundy to graze this land, fee or no fee, and this million dollars is in fact fines, not fees. The BLM pulled down the bullet points on their site about this being the off site remediation location of choice for the Dry Creek SEZ as well, except for those pesky "trespass cattle".

Perceptions matter.

[Chad]

The Tea Party IS the extreme.

[Riggerjack]

Party politics is party politics. It's a whole different animal. When it comes down to the election, every politician wants to claim the centralist role. This was a show to move the center to the left. Strong rallying cry from the far right wing, and scary to the center herd.
The opposite equivalent was the Chicago cops beating demonstrators before Nixon won on a law and order platform. It galvanized the left, but the herd distanced themselves.

Felix's vote is useless, because any move that would attract it from the green party would isolate ten from the herd. Mine too, for the same reason.

[Chad]

...ancestral way of life.

Does anyone think this matters?

It would seem to me the government does, since they are talking about unpaid grazing fees rather than the fact they have made it illegal for Bundy to graze this land, fee or no fee, and this million dollars is in fact fines, not fees. The BLM pulled down the bullet points on their site about this being the off site remediation location of choice for the Dry Creek SEZ as well, except for those pesky "trespass cattle".

Perceptions matter.

I'm not suggesting perceptions don't matter. But, obviously, the government doesn't think his ancestral way of life matters or they wouldn't disrupt it. I was really asking everyone on here if it matters in their decision on whether they are on the rancher's side or not.

[Chad]

Party politics is party politics. It's a whole different animal. When it comes down to the election, every politician wants to claim the centralist role. This was a show to move the center to the left. Strong rallying cry from the far right wing, and scary to the center herd.
The opposite equivalent was the Chicago cops beating demonstrators before Nixon won on a law and order platform. It galvanized the left, but the herd distanced themselves.

Felix's vote is useless, because any move that would attract it from the green party would isolate ten from the herd. Mine too, for the same reason.

I don't disagree with your logic. If I were in charge of either side I would focus on the middle too, but they don't.

http://klsouth.wordpress.com/2012/10/20 ... -strategy/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/rig ... te-voters/

[Seneca]

I'm not suggesting perceptions don't matter. But, obviously, the government doesn't think his ancestral way of life matters or they wouldn't disrupt it. I was really asking everyone on here if it matters in their decision on whether they are on the rancher's side or not.

Would I rather Bundy continue to graze the land of his forefathers, or Sen Reid's son get rich off of destroying Dry Creek's ecosystem, destroying Bundy in penance, and then moving on?

For me Bundy being there first does play in to it. I'm no cowboy and don't like riding horses even, but we westerners still identify with cowboys. Their ethic is part of our culture.

There is no reason the Dry Creek project cannot choose another area for off site remediation, the government formally identified and studied other areas. Bundy's area is simply the easiest and cheapest, if only that pesky Bundy wasn't there.