We've all been affected by low interest rates banks offer for savings account. Low interest rates have allowed real estate to be more expensive than if the rates were higher. Stagnant or dropping wages have affected many of us. The 35% top marginal income tax plus all the loopholes have allowed many high income earners to pay low amounts of taxes, which decrease revenue and allows wealth to siphon upward. Top marginal taxes have been between 70-90% during much of the 20th century.
99 percenters
It is only SS-DD (same sh*t-different day). This has always been going on. The unemployment and financial crisis, one after another, has people on a big edge. Plus people like to get into groups and make some kind of a point, if they think they are making one. Group identification en mass. Same thing as the 60's and the 70's and so on. If you follow the so called "plan" to collapse America this is just another step.
The 1% are really needing a crisis. Not much more can happen with a well armed USA. The average citizens have way many more guns and ammo than "they" have and they can't win in that manner. "They" need a crisis to go forward.
The 1% are really needing a crisis. Not much more can happen with a well armed USA. The average citizens have way many more guns and ammo than "they" have and they can't win in that manner. "They" need a crisis to go forward.
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jacob
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We're probably more one percenters (albeit with far less money and with no lobbyists on retainers) in this forum than 99 percenters. For example, I have a strong opinion on the capital gains tax but I don't care about "paychecks and paying bills".
I feel that most people are ignorant and often willfully so.
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/musin ... -dumb.html
This is also connected with the idea of "natural slaves" (Aristotle) which are people "who don't think but just do". I kind of agree with the concept of natural slaves which again means that there's not really anything one can do about it, hence the word natural---how do you get someone to think who isn't inclined to do so.
Aristotle acknowledged that the Greek sorting system wasn't very good. Basing it on height, stature, or race isn't a very good sorting system to say the least. Monarchies find that basing it on heritage isn't very good either, but maybe it's slightly better(?)
I think it was akratic who noted that our present sorting system is better than anything previously tried. However, it's far from perfect. There's still significant levels of nepotism (family or ivy league), social immobility, etc.
One could say that ERE and MMM serves the purpose of pulling people's heads out of their asses for those who aren't connected in the sense above. However, a great deal of people prefer to keep their heads just were it is, because although it's smelly, it's warm and comfortable. (I just couldn't resist taking the metaphor to its limit.)
I feel that most people are ignorant and often willfully so.
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/musin ... -dumb.html
This is also connected with the idea of "natural slaves" (Aristotle) which are people "who don't think but just do". I kind of agree with the concept of natural slaves which again means that there's not really anything one can do about it, hence the word natural---how do you get someone to think who isn't inclined to do so.
Aristotle acknowledged that the Greek sorting system wasn't very good. Basing it on height, stature, or race isn't a very good sorting system to say the least. Monarchies find that basing it on heritage isn't very good either, but maybe it's slightly better(?)
I think it was akratic who noted that our present sorting system is better than anything previously tried. However, it's far from perfect. There's still significant levels of nepotism (family or ivy league), social immobility, etc.
One could say that ERE and MMM serves the purpose of pulling people's heads out of their asses for those who aren't connected in the sense above. However, a great deal of people prefer to keep their heads just were it is, because although it's smelly, it's warm and comfortable. (I just couldn't resist taking the metaphor to its limit.)
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jennypenny
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I don't feel sorry for anyone anymore. People are natural slaves and complainers. Too bad for them. Although, you know deep down they're really just carrying out their "destiny" or "fate" or whatever you want to label it. Their behaviour is really just an extension of their genes and environment interplay, non of which they can control. But then again, neither can I/we. However, if you can't "choose" either, it's good to be on top at least.
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jennypenny
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I've been having this argument with my siblings all week (about the protests). They told me I just don't get it because I "have money." I tried to explain that I have money *because* I get it. Of course, that went nowhere.
I'm giving up trying to explain how we live and why. Jacob's writings (and others like it) are like a version of the permanent portfolio for your life, but I guess it's so simple it's too hard for people to understand.
I'm giving up trying to explain how we live and why. Jacob's writings (and others like it) are like a version of the permanent portfolio for your life, but I guess it's so simple it's too hard for people to understand.
I've been through the Occupy Boston camp a couple times. I have to pass by it to get to class.
The general sentiment seems to be anger at being impoverished and that the government will give handouts to giant businesses that are in trouble, but not to people who are losing their homes. But that's about all they can agree on. They had a meeting I listened to at lunch yesterday which consisted of anyone saying whatever they want on a bull horn. First an anarchist gets up and talks about how we need to destroy government. Then a socialist gets up and talks about how government needs to do so much more. Then one guy talks about how the rich have to pay way more taxes. Then a Ron Paul supporter gets up and talks about liberty and eradicating the income tax and the IRS all together. So I didn't see any kind of cohesion.
What I did see was a lot of poor people, down on their luck, being very polite to one another.
The general sentiment seems to be anger at being impoverished and that the government will give handouts to giant businesses that are in trouble, but not to people who are losing their homes. But that's about all they can agree on. They had a meeting I listened to at lunch yesterday which consisted of anyone saying whatever they want on a bull horn. First an anarchist gets up and talks about how we need to destroy government. Then a socialist gets up and talks about how government needs to do so much more. Then one guy talks about how the rich have to pay way more taxes. Then a Ron Paul supporter gets up and talks about liberty and eradicating the income tax and the IRS all together. So I didn't see any kind of cohesion.
What I did see was a lot of poor people, down on their luck, being very polite to one another.
I have been following it. The basic concern might be summed up is that we have become Orwell's Animal Farm, where "All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others."
This post I saw today from a former Tea Party activist explains in rage/rant form what people are upset about just as well as any I have seen: http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=195841
Here is a more erudite exposition from someone a little older and wiser: http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.co ... l?spref=fb
I've also read a lot of blog posts from people who have gone down to these things just to see what's going on. They pretty much uniformly report that the protesters are there in earnest and that the media has misrepresented what is happening and who is there.
See, e.g.: http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.co ... d-tea.html
Make sure you watch the Chris Hedges link below the John Stewart piece.
I can't say that I'm affected personally, but I am sympathetic to people who have been and I do believe this is only the beginning of something.
Finally, here's what the kids think about who is in charge(courtesy my teenager): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6KXgjLqSTg
This post I saw today from a former Tea Party activist explains in rage/rant form what people are upset about just as well as any I have seen: http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=195841
Here is a more erudite exposition from someone a little older and wiser: http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.co ... l?spref=fb
I've also read a lot of blog posts from people who have gone down to these things just to see what's going on. They pretty much uniformly report that the protesters are there in earnest and that the media has misrepresented what is happening and who is there.
See, e.g.: http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.co ... d-tea.html
Make sure you watch the Chris Hedges link below the John Stewart piece.
I can't say that I'm affected personally, but I am sympathetic to people who have been and I do believe this is only the beginning of something.
Finally, here's what the kids think about who is in charge(courtesy my teenager): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6KXgjLqSTg
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jennypenny
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If there are truly disadvantaged people at these protests, I hope they get they get their message out there. I haven't seen much of that on the news. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by that.
What I've listened to all week is my neighbors in Stepford try and identify themselves with the protesters because they've been hit hard the last few years. Of course, by hit hard they mean they couldn't put their boat in because gas was too high or they had to cut their cleaning lady to every other week.
I saw a young guy today with one of the handmade "eat the rich" signs in the back window of his car. We were both walking into the health club when I saw him. I wanted to explain that he probably was the "rich" if he could afford our health club.
What I've listened to all week is my neighbors in Stepford try and identify themselves with the protesters because they've been hit hard the last few years. Of course, by hit hard they mean they couldn't put their boat in because gas was too high or they had to cut their cleaning lady to every other week.
I saw a young guy today with one of the handmade "eat the rich" signs in the back window of his car. We were both walking into the health club when I saw him. I wanted to explain that he probably was the "rich" if he could afford our health club.
I talk to the protesters sometimes and read their signs. There's a group of them right outside my building in downtown Chicago. They have a wide variety of complaints, some of which I agree with, and some of which I disagree with.
The spectrum is something like:
- "I'm pissed off because I have student loan debt and few appealing job prospects" -- I have little sympathy with this one. Take responsibility for your life people!
- "Capitalism is flawed" -- of course, but do you have a better system?
- "Banks have taken advantage of their situation" -- Yes. This should be addressed.
- "Bank bailouts were unacceptable" -- Yes. But I'm not sure we should be blaming the banks for taking the money. We need a better designed system. In general this seems like mostly a political problem to me.
- "I am in the bottom 99% of earners" / "I am in debt" -- Okay...?
- "We should take away corporate liability shields" -- Wh... what? Why? Our solution to a failing economy is to go after entreprenuers and small businesses and discourage startups!?
- "Our tax system is broken" -- Hell yeah it is. Let's fix this.
- "All trading is evil / all of wall st is evil / all finance is evil" -- This one is tough for me to listen to. I have to remind myself that these people have no idea how the markets actually work, and are just vehemently stating uninformed opinions.
- "Basing our society on greed, materialism, consumption, etc., is bad for people" -- I agree, but I think ERE is a better solution than camping on sidewalks, beating drums and making signs
I don't particularly want to start and participate in a huge online debate on any of these topics. These are just things I hear from the protesters, and what I think about them.
When talking to the protesters, the overall sense I get is they are all there for very different reasons. I forget how this exactly goes, but my favorite protester sign is the one that goes: "You see confusion and disorganization. I see actual democracy in process"
I wish the protesters would unite on only their most valid and important objections*, and discard the rest.
(*) as determined by me.
The spectrum is something like:
- "I'm pissed off because I have student loan debt and few appealing job prospects" -- I have little sympathy with this one. Take responsibility for your life people!
- "Capitalism is flawed" -- of course, but do you have a better system?
- "Banks have taken advantage of their situation" -- Yes. This should be addressed.
- "Bank bailouts were unacceptable" -- Yes. But I'm not sure we should be blaming the banks for taking the money. We need a better designed system. In general this seems like mostly a political problem to me.
- "I am in the bottom 99% of earners" / "I am in debt" -- Okay...?
- "We should take away corporate liability shields" -- Wh... what? Why? Our solution to a failing economy is to go after entreprenuers and small businesses and discourage startups!?
- "Our tax system is broken" -- Hell yeah it is. Let's fix this.
- "All trading is evil / all of wall st is evil / all finance is evil" -- This one is tough for me to listen to. I have to remind myself that these people have no idea how the markets actually work, and are just vehemently stating uninformed opinions.
- "Basing our society on greed, materialism, consumption, etc., is bad for people" -- I agree, but I think ERE is a better solution than camping on sidewalks, beating drums and making signs
I don't particularly want to start and participate in a huge online debate on any of these topics. These are just things I hear from the protesters, and what I think about them.
When talking to the protesters, the overall sense I get is they are all there for very different reasons. I forget how this exactly goes, but my favorite protester sign is the one that goes: "You see confusion and disorganization. I see actual democracy in process"
I wish the protesters would unite on only their most valid and important objections*, and discard the rest.
(*) as determined by me.
@ChrisL:
That's a rather pessimistic view to take. We are all what we choose to be. We do control our own fate. Many of us were just as entrenched in working class behaviors, buying and hording and working and using credit, before we decided something needed to change and did the appropriate research that led us here.
I believe everyone, even people who don't have a single original thought in their life, have complete control of what they do and who they are. No force of the universe is keeping these people down and forcing them to live out some predetermined fate like the puppets you describe.
That's a rather pessimistic view to take. We are all what we choose to be. We do control our own fate. Many of us were just as entrenched in working class behaviors, buying and hording and working and using credit, before we decided something needed to change and did the appropriate research that led us here.
I believe everyone, even people who don't have a single original thought in their life, have complete control of what they do and who they are. No force of the universe is keeping these people down and forcing them to live out some predetermined fate like the puppets you describe.
I found this article worth a read:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/10/10-1
It suggests that the politicians and 1% can't really understand the goals of the protesters, because their wants are outside of the paradigms of the "elite"
A few of the key points I've seen are:
Illegal activities occurred that led to the collapse of the banking system. Lots of fraud. There need to be consequences to this, and certain people need to be prosecuted. I saw an interview with Warren Buffet suggesting the "rule book" needed to be changed, because the people that benefited from the large bank speculation were in a situation they couldn't lose, they had no consequences if they destroyed the world economy through their activities. As it turned out, not only could they not lose, but the government would provide them with trillions of dollars when they did fail.
The political process in Washington is heavily influenced by money coming from corporations, and it is no surprise that laws are written that benefit the corporations that provide $ to congressmen. Lobbying is big business. I am in the process of reading a book by Joel Salatin, called "Everything I want to Do is Illegal." Mr Salatin is a small farmer that focuses on sustainable agriculture, and the book is full of examples of how large corporations pay millions of dollars into congress, and the end result is corporations have legal advantages over small entrepreneurs. The laws literally result in a group of people of power and wealth, with legal advantages over anybody who isn't already in a position of power and wealth.
There is a website that has people voicing their personal situations. http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com
Many of these cases are example of people playing the victim. Some of these examples are people that made bad decisions and are in a situation that is the result of bad decisions. Others are people where some could argue that "the system" failed them
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/10/10-1
It suggests that the politicians and 1% can't really understand the goals of the protesters, because their wants are outside of the paradigms of the "elite"
A few of the key points I've seen are:
Illegal activities occurred that led to the collapse of the banking system. Lots of fraud. There need to be consequences to this, and certain people need to be prosecuted. I saw an interview with Warren Buffet suggesting the "rule book" needed to be changed, because the people that benefited from the large bank speculation were in a situation they couldn't lose, they had no consequences if they destroyed the world economy through their activities. As it turned out, not only could they not lose, but the government would provide them with trillions of dollars when they did fail.
The political process in Washington is heavily influenced by money coming from corporations, and it is no surprise that laws are written that benefit the corporations that provide $ to congressmen. Lobbying is big business. I am in the process of reading a book by Joel Salatin, called "Everything I want to Do is Illegal." Mr Salatin is a small farmer that focuses on sustainable agriculture, and the book is full of examples of how large corporations pay millions of dollars into congress, and the end result is corporations have legal advantages over small entrepreneurs. The laws literally result in a group of people of power and wealth, with legal advantages over anybody who isn't already in a position of power and wealth.
There is a website that has people voicing their personal situations. http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com
Many of these cases are example of people playing the victim. Some of these examples are people that made bad decisions and are in a situation that is the result of bad decisions. Others are people where some could argue that "the system" failed them
It behooves us to be honest about the situation- to understand it better. While half the population has below average intelligence, there is no reason this fact should logically lead to the imbalance we see now.
There is a multibillon dollar advertising industry trying and succeeding to convince the 99% to buy buy buy - for happiness, status and sex, and just because a few of us can see thought the ruse it doesn't imply the majority is stupid or willfully ignoring good information- in this case the deck is stacked against them- from the biological imperative to get more stuff and breed to the slick salesmen who practice greed; everything the modern world exposes us to is focused on consumption.
It would be most helpful to have compassion for those who can not see and seek to enlighten those who are ready (thanks to Jacob for his work on this).
The reason I give up some of my freedom to the government is the implicit contract that the government will defend me/us from illegal exploitation within and outside our borders. I think that the current protest are taking some of that freedom back in exchange for the perceived exportation the people have suffered.
There is a multibillon dollar advertising industry trying and succeeding to convince the 99% to buy buy buy - for happiness, status and sex, and just because a few of us can see thought the ruse it doesn't imply the majority is stupid or willfully ignoring good information- in this case the deck is stacked against them- from the biological imperative to get more stuff and breed to the slick salesmen who practice greed; everything the modern world exposes us to is focused on consumption.
It would be most helpful to have compassion for those who can not see and seek to enlighten those who are ready (thanks to Jacob for his work on this).
The reason I give up some of my freedom to the government is the implicit contract that the government will defend me/us from illegal exploitation within and outside our borders. I think that the current protest are taking some of that freedom back in exchange for the perceived exportation the people have suffered.
I admit, I'm pretty shocked at the overall indifference that some of you display towards this movement, we are NOT the 1%, we WERE the 99% who happen to have seen the light and opted out altogether.
Those bankers making 600% of their salary in bonus, those top execs that drove companies into the ground yet were given golden parachutes, those multi deca-millionares who pay less than 16% in personal income tax, the corporations in bed with the lobbyists in bed with the politicians, those oligopolies that manipulate the prices of commodities...THOSE are the 1%.
And, we were ALL victims of that 1%, whether it was through layoffs while senior execs maintain their 6 and 7 figure bonuses (*raises hand*), whether we now work 10-12+ hour days to cover other layoffs or out of fear of losing our jobs, whether we paid our fair share of personal income tax/sales tax/capital gains tax, whether we're Americans who actually have to think about how we're gonna pay for that doctor/hospital visit (inhumane!), whether our governments cut services that are supposed to help get the working poor out of poverty...
...dudes, we all were, at some point, the 99%.
Those bankers making 600% of their salary in bonus, those top execs that drove companies into the ground yet were given golden parachutes, those multi deca-millionares who pay less than 16% in personal income tax, the corporations in bed with the lobbyists in bed with the politicians, those oligopolies that manipulate the prices of commodities...THOSE are the 1%.
And, we were ALL victims of that 1%, whether it was through layoffs while senior execs maintain their 6 and 7 figure bonuses (*raises hand*), whether we now work 10-12+ hour days to cover other layoffs or out of fear of losing our jobs, whether we paid our fair share of personal income tax/sales tax/capital gains tax, whether we're Americans who actually have to think about how we're gonna pay for that doctor/hospital visit (inhumane!), whether our governments cut services that are supposed to help get the working poor out of poverty...
...dudes, we all were, at some point, the 99%.
Question 1: What is the 1%? Top 1% income? Top 1% net worth? Top 1% of what? The US? The world? Help me out here, I've never seen numbers in any article about this subject.
The tumblr site seems misplaced to me... the top 1% are people too, have personal problems, etc.
I've heard a number of people scoff at the movement because there's no "coherent message" or something like that. I kind of want to do a political cartoon of a mob hanging a banker, with the banker rolling his eyes and saying "sure, but they have no coherent message."
The tumblr site seems misplaced to me... the top 1% are people too, have personal problems, etc.
I've heard a number of people scoff at the movement because there's no "coherent message" or something like that. I kind of want to do a political cartoon of a mob hanging a banker, with the banker rolling his eyes and saying "sure, but they have no coherent message."
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jacob
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I don't identify very well with the 99%s (admittedly I acknowledge that they're very diverse, so that statement may not make sense). I've never felt that I had a right to a job or that someone owed me a job. The default is for someone to make their own work and if they can't do that they should be happy if anyone else does it for them. I have the same feelings about debt. If I don't have the money to buy something, the default is that I don't buy it. Not that someone else should give me the money at favorable interest rates.
Things that do make me angry are things like TARP when the government goes in an takes my money and gives it to people who made bad business calls. When the government takes my money and gives it to people so they can get useless college degrees or cash for their clunkers. When lobbyists get laws enacted that benefit entrenched corporations. Like, why do I need a $40 permit from the city to open a lemonade stand?
So maybe we represent a third category?
What I'm saying is that if it comes down to an entitled middle-class who demands jobs and aren't willing to swallow the blue pill and evil people from the ruling class who gets bailouts while taking advantage of the former, my interests are actually closer aligned with the latter (due to being a capitalist who's invested in the current system).
Ideally, I'd prefer just to stay out of it.
I vote for "none of the above."
Things that do make me angry are things like TARP when the government goes in an takes my money and gives it to people who made bad business calls. When the government takes my money and gives it to people so they can get useless college degrees or cash for their clunkers. When lobbyists get laws enacted that benefit entrenched corporations. Like, why do I need a $40 permit from the city to open a lemonade stand?
So maybe we represent a third category?
What I'm saying is that if it comes down to an entitled middle-class who demands jobs and aren't willing to swallow the blue pill and evil people from the ruling class who gets bailouts while taking advantage of the former, my interests are actually closer aligned with the latter (due to being a capitalist who's invested in the current system).
Ideally, I'd prefer just to stay out of it.
I vote for "none of the above."
I'm sympathetic with what I believe are some of the goals of the "Occupy" movement - more redistributive tax rates, more banking regulation, more separation between government and corporate elites - I think these are the core goals of the movement.
Nonetheless I don't feel any sympathy for the actual individuals who are protesting. They mostly seem to be hipsters with iPhones who believe they deserve a good job. Complaints like "I have too much college debt" are ludicrous to me. Why did you go to an expensive college? I went to a state school. How can you afford an iPhone? My phone is prepaid and 8 years old. Why are they buying coffee? And so on.
Furthermore, although there are enough disaffected people for the movement to get traction, there is no cohesion and no goals. I think that's what a leaderless grassroots movement looks like. Contrast with the Tea Party movement, which was *not* grassroots and was coordinated much higher up by corporate leaders - but which achieved at least some of its goals and got people elected.
Nonetheless I don't feel any sympathy for the actual individuals who are protesting. They mostly seem to be hipsters with iPhones who believe they deserve a good job. Complaints like "I have too much college debt" are ludicrous to me. Why did you go to an expensive college? I went to a state school. How can you afford an iPhone? My phone is prepaid and 8 years old. Why are they buying coffee? And so on.
Furthermore, although there are enough disaffected people for the movement to get traction, there is no cohesion and no goals. I think that's what a leaderless grassroots movement looks like. Contrast with the Tea Party movement, which was *not* grassroots and was coordinated much higher up by corporate leaders - but which achieved at least some of its goals and got people elected.
It frustrates me that there isn't a clearer focus, but I don't think it's bad that people are out yelling what ever it is they do think. It's a hard situation, because the people who best understand economics and politics and who would be the people best able to eloquently express what has gone wrong and make specific suggestions about how to fix it are probably going to be the same folks on the winning side and not the folks in the 99%. If it's really a genuine, popular sort of movement, you kind of have to expect that lots of people are going to be yelling some conflicting, uneducated stuff. I'm personally embarrassed to be caught with a microphone talking about something I don't fully understand, but that just means that I'm at home doing nothing with my sense of unease.